10 reasons Mage Knight is the worst boardgame of all time

I think he is referring to Warhammer Quest:The Adventure Card Game.

Is Dice Towers that Tom Vasel guy? I don’t mean to be a dick, but I’ve never seen anything by him that didn’t come across as smug and grating.

-Tom

Yep. it’s him. I take no offense since I have no connection to him at all. I just have a handful of You Tube videos I watch to help me pick new games. It’s not him that disliked Pandemic, one of his… side-kicks?

I get what you mean though. They actually have a list of games where he and his group won’t teach new players because they mess it up… I assume because they’re new at the game. Almost every game I’ve ever played I had to teach myself and then spend years teaching others. I have a core group that learns with me but since friends, spouses and family members cycle through our game nights… often a new player is around. I can’t imagine refusing to teach someone a new game.

That’s so weird to me. I have never NOT enjoyed teaching someone how to play a game.

-Tom

I think you guys are being a bit harsh on Mr. Vasel on this one. That “top ten games I won’t teach” list was much more tongue-in-cheek than you are making it out to be.

I can also adamantly agree with the games on their list. I hate teaching people to play Race for the Galaxy, but I love playing it. When you play it with people who have played it 10 or more times, it’s a 20 minute game. If you play it with new people, it takes an hour or more. Plus there’s often a ton of confusion over the cards. In Age of Steam you might expect a new player to bankrupt themselves before finishing. In Puerto Rico, a new player experimenting can cost the player to the left the game.

There’s a ton of games I love teaching to new players, but there are also games that only become good on multiple plays with the same people. That list was about those games. If you get someone in your group who’s going to be coming to multiple game nights, then it’s worth trying to get that player excited about those games. If a new player is there on a one-off, not sure they’ll come back, there’s different games that fit that situation better.

I mostly play with repeat players so I ended up having a lot of games on their list. I have friends who are more likely to do one-off sessions with new people and we collect quite different games.

It’s actually a top ten list of games they won’t play with newbies. In some cases, eg Puerto Rico, it’s legitimate to criticize the effect of playing with people with dissimilar experience. In one case, they pointed out that when they were newbies, they didn’t enjoy playing with experts.

But I agree that the whole exercise was partly tongue in cheek. They have churned out literally hundreds of Top Ten lists, it’s understandable that our occasionally they throw on a bit of a wild card.

Anyway I enjoy their reviews, particularly Garcias’s, because the reviewers are reasonably thorough yet fairly concise.

I have a similar reaction to his videos.

That’s not how I feel at all. If someone wants to learn a new game, and we have time, I’m not going to tell them no it’s not worth my time. I don’t care if they only play it once or not. I am exposing them to a hobby, and it’s up to them to decide whether or not they like the more complicated games or prefer to stick to the softer ones. The only way they’re going to know though is if you try. I don’t think it was mean-spirited intentionally, but a list like that doesn’t do the hobby any favors. I’ve had people tell me I hate board games until I came to your house… now they’re regulars. Maybe the reason for that is I really don’t give a shit if we spend 3 hours teaching someone a game they later decide they don’t like and would rather not play again. It was social time, we enjoyed talking to each other, and because the company is still fun they come back and we do something else that night when they do. I still allow them to choose games from my list to try… and I wont’ even sigh heavy if they pick something that takes an hour to set-up.

As for the tongue and check, one of his side-kicks flat up said he wouldn’t play one of those games with new players, not all… others they were like well maybe.

I tend to like his reviews and his comments because I can see the game, I am familiar with how he feels about other games and it gives me a guideline. Especially with Kickstarter out there creating waves, there are so many to choose from now… I need to whittle down the list somehow when I want to try a new game and hope some of my group will like it too.

Oh, man. I love teaching Age of Steam, and have probably done it 20 times. We always just used a house rule where newbies could take extra loans during the turn during the first two turns (though we still encouraged them to do the up-front calculation right from the start, just to get used to it and see how badly off they were). Given those minor training wheels, I never saw a new player go bankrupt, even when playing stupidly brutal setups like Northern California with 4 players.

The only game I can think of where new players are a show stopper for me is Avalon Hill’s Titan. Won’t teach it, won’t even play unless everyone has played at least 10 times before. It’s just so pointless and tedious unless everyone has a decent understanding of the systems and is proficient at the basic mechanical aspects like reading the map. Of course this means that I never get to play it with anyone. It would be great to get the old university Titan gang back together for a game or two, but that’s just not going to happen. Still, better to keep those memories intact than have yet another disappointing newbie game.

Let me just interject here that I hate this way of thinking. A guy who went by the BGG name Alexfrog (and as far as I’m concerned popularized this sort of thing) was involved with my regular game group during PR’s heyday. Nice guy, but mostly hated playing with him. If you think you’ve figured out ‘optimal’ play for a game, and that a newbie that doesn’t grok that is ‘ruining the game’, you can fuck right off.

I’m basically in the same boat as @Nesrie here. A new player wants to play, we are happy to invite them in, give them tips if they ask for it, and play the damn game. It might not be the perfect example of play, but perhaps we learn a new strategy outside of our groupthink, perhaps not. Hopefully we’ve gained a new member for the group by treating them with respect.

I don’t know how I made myself out to be such an asshole player. I’m happy to teach a new player any of these games if they ask. As I said, they’re among my favorite games, and getting new players to play them is fantastic! I think new players should know that these type of games take a few plays to be fun so I caution people who want to check them out. Some games are better with first time players then others. There’s tons of games out there and you should be prioritizing the games that fit your gaming situation. I would absolutely not recommend Puerto Rico to someone who’s constantly playing with new players. The evolving group meta is the best part of that game.

I don’t know how to convince you I’m not that type of player other than to adamantly state that I’m not. I don’t lecture about optimal play or throw a fit when this happens in a game, and I’m happy to teach new players these games (assuming they understand that the first play or two might not be fun), I just happen to think different games work better with different groups.

However, Puerto Rico the game is explicitly a bad design for these types of gaming situations. Its best parts show when the same group of people are learning and timing off of each others past games and experiences. If we need to have an off-game to get someone into the groove, I’m happy to do so, but I’d warn that player it will take a few plays to blossom, and if they’d rather jump into something that’s fun right away, maybe something like Blood Rage or Nations would be a better experience.

I actually do too (and similarly allow loans at any point for the first few turns). I tend to fear it’s a negative experience for new players, so I usually suggest it while cautioning that the game feels like it hates you for your first play or two. But I’ve had much more positive new player experiences than bad ones with it.

All that said, I’m still not sure I want to teach anyone Race for the Galaxy. It’s the only game I dislike playing with new players so much the other person would have to be adamant to get me to teach it. And now that Roll for the Galaxy is out, there’s not much reason to. That game is much easier to teach, learn, and have fun with new players. Plus, if you know Roll, than learning Race is pretty easy!

It’s not that the newbie is “ruining” the game, whatever that means. The problem is that the player to his left can take advantage of the newbie and use it to get ahead of his other opponents. Which is not particularly fair to the expert players who are not to the newbie’s left. Even if you are willing to play with that asymmetry, it can lead to awkward moments during or after the game (“Hey buddy, welcome to our game group! Now sit here to my right.” or “Yeah, I came in second but I would’ve won if I had been sitting over there!”)

This is an issue that occurs only in certain games, and Puerto Rico is the classic example.

I guess my group isn’t as cutthroat as all that. As far as I know, no one has ever tried to manipulate a newb in that way. Like I said, we all play to win, even in serious games we’ve played a million times (Scepter of Zavandor, Power Grid, etc), but no one would think of taking advantage like that. Occasionally someone tries the “you really shouldn’t go after me because…” BS, but that gets called out and shut down pretty quick. ;)

The thing is that in Puerto Rico, you wouldn’t have to actively manipulate a newbie to your right. The game is structured in a way that everyone tries to stop the person on their left. Newbies can’t do this effectively, so that player’s expansion is simply unchecked. Even if you aren’t trying to be cutthroat at all, you will benefit from inaction.

Really, the only thing you can do is say “Hey buddy, you don’t wanna do that move cause it will really help me!” Now imagine you are the guy at the table who constantly decides whether or not to say that. Or worse, the other players all decide they need to speak up in order to help the newbie keep you in check. Neither sounds like much fun at all.

Zavandor and Power Grid are different, it’s random who the newbie will inadvertently benefit at any point.

I certainly can’t speak for others, but I don’t think you’re an asshole player just by what you wrote here. I just don’t think we should have games that are considered off-limits to new players. How welcoming does that even sound? Puerto Rico was maybe the 2nd or 3rd Euro game I ever owned, as a kid, gifted to me by my sister and we taught ourselves how to play. It was either that or try and go down to the local game shop which sounded about as welcoming as Dice Tower’s No Newbie list.

Yeah our goal is the same every game night, everyone should have fun. There are a lot of games that can turn sour if you have one player that approaches it in a certain way, and by that I don’t mean the new person who is figuring out… it’s usually an experienced player.

But surely if you have a choice of games, there are some you would prefer to play more than others when newbies are present? I think that was the spirit behind making that list.

Let me throw out another example: Chess. Chess is fine when evenly matched people play. But I would never suggest a match between two players with moderate differences in skill, because the better player would inevitably win. I mean, if the better chess player were interested in coaching the newbie, then it might be a valuable experience. But if they just wanted to play a game, then chess would be a waste of time compared to almost any other game.

I don’t. I honestly don’t. What we play is completely based on what everyone’s interest is at the moment. We’re mostly in our 30s-40s now. Most have had experiences with basic boardgames in the past, the rest get exposure right here for the past 3 years. One of them seems oddly scarred by Settlers actually so that one rarely comes out, but the general theme is…it’s what we want to do that night, what we’re in the mood for and if there is a new player, everyone helps teach them. It’s that simple.

If it’s a more complicated game, I have about 3-4 I might invite for a we’re going to play and learn this new game. Sometimes they pleasantly surprise me and show up with a new game they bought and say hey, can we try this tonight, and we’re usually like… sure. That’s not say I don’t have a few harder core members in the group. I do. I love it when they show up with a new Kickstarter or something I haven’t seen before. The annual game exchange party also distributes games out to everyone. I like sharing my hobby.

If someone doesn’t like board or card games at all, I am just convinced they haven’t played the right one yet or they played with the wrong people. The great aunts and uncles in my family, it’s Pinochle or Trivia Pursuit. I introduced Planet Hollywood years ago which was a favorite because guess what else they all do, watch movies and TV. I knew my audience, and it had nothing to do with skill.

Not that they are entirely related, but my gaming group is almost 100% IT. We’re not afraid to read rules and figure out mechanics. They just don’t like doing it on their own because they’re convinced if they do it wrong something horrible will happen and the wrong person wins. I tell them, if we get the rules wrong the first time… we’ll do better the second time.

Yup. Pretty much all of that, even d down to the last- I’m probably the only guy I my group not in IT (I’m a chef). But what we want to play, or who we invite, never had anything to do with whether or not there’s a new person involved. The Tuesday night group is in the gaming space at a local shop, and often there’s a new person around. If we’re starting a game, any game, and they seem interested, we invite them in. It helps that many Euro games have relatively simple rules, and little (or no) text on cards, though the strategy might be deep. Helps with leaning.

How is this even a criticism? Also technically it is a LCG. All products are predetermined. There is no randomization AKA CCG.