2012 election pregame

Telefrog · 2012-11-02T10:52:16.000Z

The line has already started amongst die-hards that the report is biased and part of the conspiracy.

triggercut · 2012-11-02T10:59:18.000Z

Driveled:

No candidate has won while losing indys by a significant margin. Bush tied indys in 04 but had record R turnout.

Myth.

Nate Silver ‏@fivethirtyeight
In 3 closest elections since exit polls began (76, 00, 04), the candidate who won independents LOST the popular vote.

Timex · 2012-11-02T11:00:09.000Z

Nevertheless, in terms of dragging down discourse I think folks like Coulter and her continual calling out of the president as a retard, or Limbaugh’s completely over the top attacks do have an affect, and inasmuch as the conservative side seems to be more over the top than the liberal side (at least in terms of noteworthy national figures) share a bit more of the blame.

Well, certainly with Coulter calling Obama a retard, we have a direct comparison that can be made with tons of people effectively calling Bush II a retard, right?

Ultimately, I think the current political clime is far more detrimental to the right than it is to the left.

This may be true, but I think the more important problem is that it is detrimental to our country. It divides us as people, and results in our leaders spending all of their time playing a game instead of dealing with the very real problems that are currently messing shit up in the world.

Both parties have gotten into the habit of hoping the other fails. Even ideas which are seemingly good are discounted because they came from “the other side”, and are thus somehow tainted.

We look at our government, and it’s a dysfunctional mess. Congressional approval ratings are at an all time low, I think… because they’re all bums. They aren’t capable of doing their job, because they no longer seem to realize what their job actually is.

WarrenM · 2012-11-02T11:11:15.000Z

Timex:

Well, certainly with Coulter calling Obama a retard, we have a direct comparison that can be made with tons of people effectively calling Bush II a retard, right?

Well, there’s a difference there in that Obama is not, in fact, retarded.

MrGrumpy · 2012-11-02T11:14:11.000Z

Timex:

Both parties have gotten into the habit of hoping the other fails. Even ideas which are seemingly good are discounted because they came from “the other side”, and are thus somehow tainted…

Both parties? There’s more, this should suffice.
Senate Republicans kill veterans’ jobs bill

Rightbug · 2012-11-02T11:16:11.000Z

Attention Conservatives – This just in from official Right Wing Talking Point Headquarters… Your closing argument meme will be “If Obama is elected, Congress with sabotage the economy.”

Frum gets things started with his endorsement of Romney:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/01/why-i-ll-vote-for-romney.html

The question over his head is not a question about him at all. It’s a question about his party - and that question is the same whether Romney wins or loses. The congressional Republicans have shown themselves a destructive and irrational force in American politics. But we won’t reform the congressional GOP by re-electing President Obama. If anything, an Obama re-election will not only aggravate the extremism of the congressional GOP, but also empower them: an Obama re-election raises the odds in favor of big sixth-year sweep for the congressional GOP - and very possibly a seventh-year impeachment. A Romney election will at least discourage the congressional GOP from deliberately pushing the US into recession in 2013. Added bonus: a Romney presidency likely means that the congressional GOP will lose seats in 2014, as they deserve.

Got it? Elect Romney in order to appease the crazies who will deliberately throw us back into recession. The best way to punish them is to appease them.

Frum apparently is coordinating his talking points with the Romney camp. Here’s what Romney had to say today:

“You know that if the President is re-elected, he will still be unable to work with the people in Congress,” Romney said. “He has ignored them, attacked them, blamed them. The debt ceiling will come up again, and shutdown and default will be threatened, chilling the economy.”

Basically, “Vote for me or shut down is assured.”

I suspect this is the leading edge for this meme so, either brace for it or go forth and spread the good word, depending on your inclination.

Houngan · 2012-11-02T11:16:42.000Z

Timex:

Well, certainly with Coulter calling Obama a retard, we have a direct comparison that can be made with tons of people effectively calling Bush II a retard, right?

Okay, shoot. Who called, among people who are frequently given a spot on a national television show, Bush a retard?

triggercut · 2012-11-02T11:18:14.000Z

Houngan:

Okay, shoot. Who called, among people who are frequently given a spot on a national television show, Bush a retard?

I also am dying to hear this one.

MrGrumpy · 2012-11-02T11:18:39.000Z

Papageno:

That’s actually why I like Maddow’s show the most–she explains herself. Stuff like the Ed Show and Lawrence O’Donnell is totally skippable. Hardball is fun just because I like Chris Matthews.

Chris Hayes and Ezra Klein should replace Ed and Lawrence.

Houngan · 2012-11-02T11:42:55.000Z

triggercut:

I also am dying to hear this one.

Usually when I call him on his false equivalence he just leaves the thread long enough for a buffer of posts to get generated, then hops back in.

Andy_Bates · 2012-11-02T11:43:05.000Z

Houngan:

Okay, shoot. Who called, among people who are frequently given a spot on a national television show, Bush a retard?

I know you’re fixated on this “Show me someone who has as many or more listeners than Rush Limbaugh” impossible standard going here, but didn’t you notice that WarrenM just called Bush retarded, about three posts ago? It’s hard to fault Coulter for using that term on a national stage, when people on the other side used it against Bush, all the time, on (admittedly) a much smaller stage.

MrGrumpy:

Both parties? There’s more, this should suffice.
Senate Republicans kill veterans’ jobs bill

This has been addressed in other threads, but the short version is: The Republicans opposed the bill because it violated the Budget Control Act, it didn’t have accountability to make sure it was working, and there are six other veterans’ jobs bills already in place that are supposed to do the same thing, but nobody knows if they’re working because there is no accountability.

So the Republican view is, why spend more money on another bill that violates the previously agreed-to rules, that is redundant with six other bills, and won’t guarantee that the money is being used correctly? And the Democratic view is, if six bills aren’t getting the job done, then we should pass a seventh, and who cares if it violates the rules because it’s for veterans, why do you hate veterans??

Two_Sheds · 2012-11-02T11:46:56.000Z

Houngan:

Usually when I call him on his false equivalence he just leaves the thread long enough for a buffer of posts to get generated, then hops back in.

Well, you know, both sides do that.

Andy Bates:

I know you’re fixated on this “Show me someone who has as many or more listeners than Rush Limbaugh” impossible standard going here, but . . .

That’s precisely the point, you nitwit. “Both sides are equally bad/partisan/meanie heads/whatever” is a pretty stupid argument if your representatives of “both sides” are “Hugely influential voice of the Republican Party” and “WarrenM, guy on the internet.”

Tin_Wisdom · 2012-11-02T11:55:59.000Z

Andy Bates:

[QUOTE=Houngan;3254084]Okay, shoot. Who called, among people who are frequently given a spot on a national television show, Bush a retard?

I know you’re fixated on this “Show me someone who has as many or more listeners than Rush Limbaugh” impossible standard going here, but didn’t you notice that WarrenM just called Bush retarded, about three posts ago?[/QUOTE]
Was this a joke post, or is WarrenM actually someone frequently given a spot on a national television show? Honest question: I know some people on this forum are actually semi-famous in the gaming journalism field; is WarrenM one of those?

Andy Bates:

It’s hard to fault Coulter for using that term on a national stage, when people on the other side used it against Bush, all the time, on (admittedly) a much smaller stage.

Yeah, but who? Obermann? Rachel Maddow? Maybe Jon Stewart or Colbert?

Houngan · 2012-11-02T11:58:48.000Z

Tin Wisdom:

Yeah, but who? Obermann? Rachel Maddow? Maybe Jon Stewart or Colbert?

Apparently the same stage upon which you and I are standing. Try not to push the national zeitgeist too quickly, Tin Wisdom.

Timex · 2012-11-02T12:03:53.000Z

Houngan:

Okay, shoot. Who called, among people who are frequently given a spot on a national television show, Bush a retard?

Well, Olberman called Bush a murderous fascist, and said he should be prosecuted for warcrimes. Calling him the idiot-in-chief?

Are we going to now pretend that pretty much everyone on the left continually denigrated Bush II’s intelligence? Drawing pictures of him as a monkey?

triggercut · 2012-11-02T12:04:36.000Z

Timex:

Well, Olberman called Bush a murderous fascist, and said he should be prosecuted for warcrimes. Calling him the idiot-in-chief?

Are we going to now pretend that pretty much everyone on the left continually denigrated Bush II’s intelligence? Drawing pictures of him as a monkey?

Still waiting.

Cold_Blooded · 2012-11-02T12:05:15.000Z

Video interviews at Ohio GOP rally

Apologies if this has been posted earlier.

Disclaimer: Interviews filmed by “NewLeftMedia.com,” a group whose name, for whatever reason, seems to imply some sort of subtle political bias.

Timex · 2012-11-02T12:08:14.000Z

I am unable to find an example of someone who literally used the word retard. But that is a trivial semantic difference. Calling him the idiot in chief is the same thing.

Honestly, how can you even be arguing this. Calling Bush retarded was essentially universal amongst the left.

I mean, christ, how many folks on this very forum did it? Oh, you guys aren’t in the media? But you actually represent the ACTUAL people on the left! If you all call Bush retarded, how can you possibly make an argument that suggests the left doesn’t spew a constant stream of vitriol, when YOU are the left, and YOU are spewing that constant stream… right here, where we can all see it?

MrGrumpy · 2012-11-02T12:08:26.000Z

Andy Bates:

I know you’re fixated on this “Show me someone who has as many or more listeners than Rush Limbaugh” impossible standard going here, but didn’t you notice that WarrenM just called Bush retarded, about three posts ago? It’s hard to fault Coulter for using that term on a national stage, when people on the other side used it against Bush, all the time, on (admittedly) a much smaller stage.

This has been addressed in other threads, but the short version is: The Republicans opposed the bill because it violated the Budget Control Act, it didn’t have accountability to make sure it was working, and there are six other veterans’ jobs bills already in place that are supposed to do the same thing, but nobody knows if they’re working because there is no accountability.

So the Republican view is, why spend more money on another bill that violates the previously agreed-to rules, that is redundant with six other bills, and won’t guarantee that the money is being used correctly? And the Democratic view is, if six bills aren’t getting the job done, then we should pass a seventh, and who cares if it violates the rules because it’s for veterans, why do you hate veterans??

The republican objections you assert are open for debate. … but if this has already been covered I won’t address it further.

Andy_Bates · 2012-11-02T12:16:51.000Z

Two Sheds:

That’s precisely the point, you nitwit. “Both sides are equally bad/partisan/meanie heads/whatever” is a pretty stupid argument if your representatives of “both sides” are “Hugely influential voice of the Republican Party” and “WarrenM, guy on the internet.”

Saying that Limbaugh or Coulter are the “voice of the Republican Party” is stretching it. But if your argument is that somehow Coulter has such a national reach that she will influence other people to think of the President as a “retard,” then my counterargument is that people on a national level have already been calling Bush a retard. Everywhere. All the time. In this thread. Sure, I can’t point to one person with the same audience as Limbaugh (because one doesn’t exist), but obviously the same attitude has been getting out among Democrats too. Maybe it’s through a thousand smaller channels instead of one big one, but the effect is the same or worse. I can point to someone in this thread who called Bush a retard; can you point to anyone in any of these threads who said the same thing about Obama?