2017: Whither Democrats?


Hear, hear.


She’s been a very polarizing figure for a long time, cast as an ultra-liberal and crusader for a lot of ideas that even the center-right (if there are any of them left out there) find alarming. She may not have something on the level of Clinton’s “but her emails!” for Conservative Media to latch onto, but she’s been around long enough that they’ll find plenty of other fodder for their talking heads to regurgitate.

No one is saying we should. But when we do choose who we want to oppose Trump, the choice should be made with all strategic information and data considered. I have the utmost respect for Elizabeth Warren and her service to America over her career, but to run her against Trump is giving the GOP exactly what they most desire.


There is zero reason to take Warren off the table right now other than to cater to the GOP. I’m not saying she’s the right choice. I don’t know who the right choice is, but you don’t know what the GOP wants. All they do is lie and sell false facts and narratives all day. She’s as valid as a consideration as anyone else if you remove any consideration the GOP has for the choice. Who cares what they think? The people who listen to them will just listen to some other garbage they peddle no matter who is chosen.


Yeah, it amazes me how hard it is to get this point across.

Obama won twice and he was demonized to all getout. Birtherism, ‘pallin’ around with terrorists,’ all that crap.

Foxers are gonna Fox. Dems need to give exactly 0% attention to their fucked up headstate.

I will again refer us all to General Grant:

A general officer came in from his command at this juncture, and said to the general-in-chief, speaking rapidly and laboring under considerable excitement: “General Grant, this is a crisis that cannot be looked upon too seriously. I know Lee’s methods well by past experience ; he will throw his whole army between us and the Rapidan, and cut us off completely from our communications.” The general rose to his feet, took his cigar out of his mouth, turned to the officer, and replied, with a degree of animation which he seldom manifested : “Oh, I am heartily tired of hearing about what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think he is suddenly going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do.” The officer retired rather crestfallen, and without saying a word in reply.

Campaigning with Grant, Horace Porter


This is fantastic, thank you for sharing!


Equally difficult to get a cross is the idea that there is the hardcore Fox News watching Trump base and there are conservatives who might watch Fox News along with other news programs but aren’t sucked completely into Hannity Space. I’m talking about the Evan McMullins of the world. They can be reached. They might not agree with a progressive agenda but they do want to stop Trump.


Well, Warren isn’t radically left of other Dem bigwigs at the moment, near as I can tell. (Happy to be corrected on that point.)

The knocks against her are a) she’s a schoolmarmish woman kinda like Hillary, and b) Pocahontas. I think any voter moved by either of those things is lost anyway.


One of the reasons I am obsessed with studying the Civil War is because it produced so many fucking badass moments.


That’s an awesome quote. Thank you for sharing.


Imagine the thousands of Donald Trump quotes that historians will be able to enjoy in the years to come.


I’m not going to argue the point in circles. There have been plenty of articles written on why Warren isn’t the best choice for 2020. I’m just going to say that I sincerely hope you and @Gordon_Cameron are correct, and that whomever we choose will win on a tidal wave of anti-Trump support. After all, everyone in this thread wants the same thing, even if we disagree with the strategy on how to get there.


I’m not saying I prefer Warren, by the way. I want to see the crucible of the primaries do its work and spit out a hard, burnished, tough candidate, whoever he or she may be. There really is no presumptive nominee this time, which IMO is all to the good.

I just really refuse to give one microsecond’s respect to all that Pocahontas horseshit, which as far as I can tell remains Warren’s one ‘real’ vulnerability.


Cockroach Herodotus will be a busy little arthropod.



It means “multiple people exit”. “Everybody exits” would be “exeunt omnes”.


Curses! Outpedanted!


I live in Massachusetts. She’s not exactly popular here, much less country-wide. She did the worst of Democratic incumbents in this 538 report.

Massachusetts is an interesting ground for Dem candidates. We aren’t as blue as people think, and the entire central part of the state is pretty red. My town pretty much goes 100% red, even for Trump.


Except in context, the omnes is often omitted.


Who to run is less a matter of “letting the Republicans dictate” and more of “who will people in the middle vote for.”

You can pretend that decades of GOP smearing doesn’t matter, but it does. That’s why we have a President Trump. Obama broke through it, but they had next to no time to work on him. He came out of nowhere and was incredibly charismatic at a time when the nation was really pissed at the GOP for shitting the bed.

Warren isn’t a good choice for the same reason Clinton wasn’t. She’s not especially charismatic and she has decades of smearing against her. If you want an old guard, Biden is far more viable. It’s hard not to like the dude and the only thing the GOP can target is his occasional derping, which is basically impossible for them to do while Trump walks around saying dumber things than the dumbest thing Biden ever said several times per day.

I think the better approach is your Duckworths, maybe your Betos or the like. Younger people, especially with military backgrounds are harder for the GOP to come at and get traction. With a modicum of charisma attempts to Swift Boat them will fail and it’s not like Trump doesn’t shit on the troops anyway. The way we treat vets like shit resonates HARD even with people who are devoted Republicans. Get a vet in there and be the party that cleans up the VA and people will be there in spades.

The future of the Democratic party, imo, is in female veterans. It’s hard for the Fox Newses of the world to get traction against them. Duckworth has been impregnable against their bullshit. And people in the middle like them, which is the part that matters the most.

Edit: And all that said, it might not matter if the economy takes a shit, which is pretty likely. If that happens you can run nearly anyone and probably squeeze out a win.


You may be tactically correct, but I am so sick of the underlying frame and assumptions that says a Democrat has to be a fucking medal of honor recipient to overcome the innate belief that all Democrats are unpatriotic hippies, while Cadet Bone Spurs waltzes on through.

I just can’t go with that line of thinking any more. It makes my brain explode, it’s so stupid.


You don’t need to win over the hard core GOP voters. You won’t. Especially not the guys who are left in that party.

But you do need to win over the Independents.

There are more of them than Democrats. A lot more.