Surely better than the one they left behind in their own country.
But I think you’re on to something. Guys, I came up with a suuuuuuper easy solution to the opioid crisis. Don’t do drugs. Next problem! Let’s go guys I feel like we have some great momentum going here.
Here I go:
Abortion, only have sex with women!
Abortion after rape, only get raped by women!
Yeah, thats what I meant. Writing a post quickly in between BART trains, not always great for clarity of thought.
There is a lot of straw man bashing in here, people setting up ridiculous analogies and trashing them. That’s fine.
Like I said already, I am not unsympathetic to this issue. But it is not black and white or morally easy. It’s not at all like “Should we help Puerto Rico after a natural disaster”. This issue involves personal decisions, personal responsibility, and year after year of bad decision making that trickles down a generation. Everyone that came here legally and was naturalized made that decision themselves. Everyone who came here illegally made that decision for themselves and their family.
My general point is that while I too want to see a resolution on this, this is, because of the moral and legal complexity, way down on the totem pole of things we need to shut down the government to solve.
If you want to paint that as terrible and equate it as some reprehensible wrong, so be it. I think it’s much more complex than that, but keep up the personal attacks if it makes you feel better and you need a target for your pent up rage. I’m can take it.
Nothing you have posted suggests this to be the case.
So screw those kids!
The same is true of obesity. Do you think the associated medical problems should be “way down on the totem pole” of things we use health care to solve?
I love how no one actually reads my posts but attacks what they think I must have said. I’ll say it one more time for the slow, I’ll do it in all caps:
I SUPPORT DACA.
I don’t know how more clear I can be. Is this what they mean by echo chambers and cognative dissonance? Or is it poor reading comprehension? Maybe one causes the other.
Anyway, I can’t be more clear so I’ll disengage now and let you bash me out of context. Have fun!
I don’t think spending tax dollars to kick people out of the country that have lived here for decades should be a priority either.
So as long as we are here, what should the answer for Dreamers be. Do we make them all legal, give them some kind of ID that says staying here is fine, and then give them a route to citizenship? I have no problem with that, it is not the kids fault they are here.
How about their parents? And their other relatives? What of relations who still live out of the country?
The idea of making the border open and allowing everyone in will not happen. It’s a no go, I think we can all agree with that. Some of you may feel that is how things should be but as US policy it will never happen.
I think the wall is a crazy idea but I do favor border control and security. Punish employers who hire the illegal.
I too would find a way for those who have been here and been a good part of society to stay. It makes no sense to kick out people who have contributed.
When you say don’t do drugs, are you talking about the folks that have legitimate pain issues and have become addicted to opioids (legal prescription drugs over-prescribed by a for-profit health industry who work hand in glove with Big Pharma), or people who just want to get high and stick a needle in their arm to get the desired effect?
Ok…just this once we’re make an exception to our super easy solution and modifying it to be, ‘don’t get addicted’. But this is it. I feel like any more discussion on this and we’ll be leaving super easy town and headed right towards complex and difficult city and nobody wants that.
Guap hates DACA, otherwise he would have used bold and italics!
More seriously, I think this line of thinking is the part people are having a hard time with;
Because for some of us, it is. That’s not to say our morals are superior, but we bring different perspectives and—at least for myself—baggage to the discussion.
I don’t define morality by legality. While laws exist and are vital to impose order and general civility, they aren’t always nuanced enough to be reliable barometers of what’s right and wrong.
So yes, people come illegally to the US. It’s a crime. It was -A- wrong for them to come, but that doesn’t mean it was definitively wrong for them to come. Finding safety for children is an imperative for parents. If that was the only reliable way to accomplish it, I totally get it. Finding safety for oneself is also an imperative for anyone; that’s the first order of business for most of us. I’ve used this before, but if I’m being chased by someone intent on doing me harm and my best way to avoid it involves trespassing, I’m trespassing.
On the flipside, neither does it mean they were right. If situations aren’t that bleak, I have less sympathy for the adults making the decision. That said, my understanding is the process of getting one’s family here is pretty dangerous, and most wouldn’t undertake it if they didn’t feel an absolute need.
But yeah; kids come, they grow up, and they hit their 18th birthday. They, themselves aren’t responsible for the criminal act of passing the border illegally, but the reasons they were brought here haven’t necessarily alleviated. Absent that original sin, I have zero qualms with them continuing their silence to law enforcement, especially when we have Arpaio’s and Clarke’s in positions of authority. But then they’re stuck; citizens of a nation they no longer truly belong to and absent substantial rights and agency here. So for me, it’s an easy call: give them a path to citizenship.
Will that largesse also include some “less-deserving/suffering” individuals? Yep. I just don’t see it as an issue. If they’re part of the community, they’re likely working and contributing to it when they hit adulthood. Were they “leaches” on the system beforehand? Yeah, but that’s the same for every kid until they enter the world of employment, no matter how viable the market for macaroni art becomes. Until then, they’re just economic potential.
So DACA let’s us better tap into that potential for all those kids, giving the nation a better return on investment (an investment we didn’t intentionally make, but was going to happen anyway).
Their parents left behind their shithole countries to give their kids better lives. Now they find themselves stuck in a shithole country once again.
That sure seems to be heading toward a sad truth. But I have faith! We’ll pull ourselves out of the crapper! …eventually.
Yea…same thing. Is there like a shithole 1A to shithole 4F scale or something?
Heh. Maybe there should be.
Like you, vast majority of Americans support a path to citizenship for DACA recipients.
As for parents, to come through proper channels, they’ll have to exit the country, wait certain number of years, and then wait for their kids to become US citizen, at which point they can be sponsored. Normally parents of US citizens fall in prioritized class, but it still takes years to get immigration status, based on many factors (sponsor’s ability to support the parents’ financials fully, parents’ own status etc)
So this whole process should take many years, if not more than a decade. Also keep in mind, US citizens can only sponsor immediate relatives (spouse, kids, parents, brothers and sisters), and in case of dreamers, most of their close relatives are here already (as fellow DACA recipients or US citizens)
Do most democrats (liberals) actually support the parents leaving and having to wait thier turn to re-enter the country legally sponsored?
Isn’t the GOP out to end much of the sponsored family type entries? I forget the term they use for that.
I will marry you if you’ll get me out if here until 2020.