The paragraph you quoted is fine by me. It’s this:

I think broadly, women have the same entitlements and rights in society. I think culture will come along as we progress.

“Broadly” isn’t good enough, and you can’t just counsel patience to people who are suffering discrimination right now.

You do realize that the paragraph I quoted makes this statement of yours look totally retarded, right?

I mean, he obviously agrees that broadly isn’t good enough, and that further change needs to happen. And you apparently agree that “Broadly” is apt. This rather makes it seem that you’re arguing against a strawman version of Buceph who happens to be saying different things from what I’m seeing on the page.

Aaron, I question your reading of Buceph’s tone. To my ear, a phrase like “broadly, women have the same rights and entitlements” sounds like he thinks they’ve got it pretty good and shouldn’t be radical in demanding more because that will come with time, as suggested by the phrase “will come along as we progress.”

(I’d rather you went for the Foucault than calling things “retarded,” by the way.)

Assuming the accusers relented, I agree. That would have been ideal. But I don’t expect perfection from Penny Arcade.

The real issue with the word “feminism” is that feminism has, like all mature social movements, lost its way. There are still gender injustices in the world, but the movement has shattered into a thousand self-directed shards that individually are more likely to fight among themselves than they are to address the real problems.

But this is perfectly normal.

Once upon the time, there is an injustice; a single, systematic thing that affected every member of the class. At this time the movement is populist, universal, and hardly even needs organization. Victory is inevitable.

But as time goes by, it’s clear that the one single, systematic thing was just a symptom of a more structural flaw in society. The challenge this time is much harder; what’s more, not all members of the class are necessarily affected or bothered by it. At this point, defeating the injustice requires organizing the members of the class. The organization forms, steps are taken to right the most obvious wrongs. The organization has to keep people within its class, who all have different ideas and backgrounds, focused on the common goal.

As the wrongs get righted, that focus diminishes. Something that affects or bothers this group of members isn’t as important (or is nonexistent) to that group of members. And many (if not most) of the members of the class may feel that the battle is won, or that they are equipped well enough to fight their battles individually. And they may completely disagree on if a given thing works for or against the class. (Stick Andrea Dworkin and Camille Paglia in a room with a recent copy of Playboy and a variety of ancient weaponry and see what happens next.)

What happens is that the one group so vital to defeating injustice once upon a time, eventually becomes ruled by a single sub-group whose interest don’t necessarily mesh with the whole. And this organization then becomes a cultural echo chamber, where dissent is chased off with accusations of treason. In this environment, cockamamie ideas, normally unable to bear even the most basic elements of skepticism, have the chance to take root and blossom, until among the sub-group they become doctrine.

So when you say “feminist” you could be describing any one of the fifty-seven flavors there are today, some ideal that existed way back when before the splinter occurred, or who knows what? It could be something completely reasonable or something schizophrenic. This makes the term extremely useful for politicians and pundits, but somewhat less so for actual discussion.

Combine that with internet and anonymity and what do you get?

I like this because it describes so many of the people involved with this tempest in a teapot so well.

sinnick I really liked the Franzibald series. Also enjoyed the Elemenstor comic which Franzibald refers to. The use of the ambulatory dresser is just delightfully off-the-wall. Plus there’s the crazy wiki for it that Penny Arcade fans come up with.

total ripoff of terry pratchett

Holy Christ, forgive me taking Your name in vain and continuing to come back to this thread when I know the screenname “erikg88” is still in here shitting things up. I have a special needs child and you make me want to repeated use the that term. Is there another sacred cow we will have to gore to feed your need for attention? How many more pages will you sully with this crap? I have been reading this thread for years and now I can never click on it again for fear of your pressing keys on your keyboard and more horrible little things escaping into the internet.

Why are you still here ruining this for people? Why can’t or hasn’t someone forced your PC ideological bullshit into actual P&R, where it’s much easier to ignore? This should have been split off from the Penny Arcade thread a long time ago, so those of us who enjoy it and the thread could actually do that, rather than catering to someone who is essentially just threadcrapping.

EDIT: Too soon. Just too soon.

To me, it seems like he’s stating some pretty obvious facts: That woman do broadly have the same rights and entitlements (which you agreed with), that society is trending towards more equality among the sexes / races / faiths / other factors.

(I’d rather you went for the Foucault than calling things “retarded,” by the way.)

Sounds to me like you have a problem with men talking about feminism in the first place. Maybe you think that men are necessarily empowered by The System, and therefore cannot comprehend the female perspective?

By radicalism, I mean things like G8 type protest with smashing of Burger King’s windows. I don’t think there are any radical legislative inequalities. In fact I can’t think of any legislative inequalities unless you go to family rights, which is equally ridiculous to men as to women, and abortion which is extremely divisive even amongst people who would agree 100% about everything else.

Demanding more isn’t radical, demanding more through a violent systematic overthrow overthrow of the supposedly entrenched, legally defended misogynistic patriarchy is.

Legal entitlements are the same. When you get beyond the stereotypical bulwarks of feminism most sane people agree. The big differences now are cultural. And I don’t think you can address cultural issues by something as divisive as radicalism where people become polarised.

One of the most radical ideas I heard recently was that the presumption of innocence should be abandoned in rape cases. And when people don’t get condemned for saying things like that, at worst getting platitudes in response like “Yeah, something must be done” I can’t see how anyone would be in favour of radicalism. The legal and rights based structures we have are working. When I say things will improve as we progress, I don’t mean people should sit back and take things, I’m just saying that I don’t think there needs to be fundamental change in the entire legal and constitutional ecosystem (although this is just for America, in Ireland there does need to be fundamental change, but that’s more to do with gay rights and the rights of the “Family” which is at the centre of the Irish constitution.)

Maybe you have a different view of what radicalism entails. (And I think we’d all agree it is needed in the non-Western world.) And if there are problems structurally, I’d like to know where I’m not seeing them instead of being dismissed as an “Asshole” and banished from the conversation.

Haha, every time someone has asked one of those hypothetical strawman questions, “maybe you think ____?” they have gone on to say something that’s just so obviously wrong.

Or is it just not ok to make any sort of joke about any sort of horrible thing (like rape)… even if the joke is meant to point out that the thing itself is horrible?

Or are you going to tell me that I’m required to have respect for misandrists now?
But to return to yours:
Maybe you think that men are necessarily empowered by The System, and therefore cannot comprehend the female perspective?
Sure, we’re empowered. And no, we cannot fully inhabit a woman’s lived experience, partially because of privilege, but mostly for the same reason that I can’t truly know what it’s like to be you, and you can’t know what it’s like to me be. I think there’s huge value in making the attempt, though. So no, I don’t have a problem with men talking about feminism. (The fact that I’m a man talking about it may have tipped you off.)

Buceph: The point is that “trending” is too slow, too gradual. Women getting sexually harassed shouldn’t be comforted by the thought that their grandkids will receive 25% less discrimination. That’d be like a black person living through Jim Crow thinking, “Ah, all this suffering is worth it – one day segregation will be over and my descendants will be accorded legal equality and only have to struggle against far more insidious, impossible to legislate against, cultural inequality! Oh, I can’t wait for the day when my posterity has the right to drive a nice car and get pulled over twice a week!”

We can’t wait around for all the old, really sexist people to die out and be replaced by a slightly less old, slightly less sexist generation. If I have kids, I’ll raise them right, and they’ll go into the world thinking one way… and that’ll make a .0000000000001% contribution towards feminism. And that’s why I think radicalism has its place. In this case I mean radical as cultural radicalism, not enacting vigilante justice on accused rapists. The tone taken by the fucknopa tumblr, for instance.

You’ve got to act seriously to be taken seriously. And maybe telling the perpetuators of a rape culture to go fuck themselves will make them take notice. It won’t convince them, but maybe it will make them aware that there are people who are pissed about things as they are. And maybe one day that guy’ll acknowledge privilege. Maybe he’ll even acknowledge the rape culture. But that only works if there are enough voices. Otherwise he’ll say, “ah, just a radical feminist, a fringe thinker, some nut. Too sensitive, can’t take a joke, can’t recognize a joke. Can’t see when I’m trying to help her, can’t understand the situation as it is. Can’t be satisfied.”

Nobody should be satisfied, not until that “broadly” we’ve been talking about becomes “absolutely.” And if we take it for granted that it will happen, sooner or later, as part of inevitable progress, then we’re slowing things down.

That’s patently ridiculous. Women aren’t living through anything like state sanctioned segregation. And if they were, I wouldn’t be stringently against radical means to stop it.* And as you say, it’s insidious and impossible to legislate against, cultural inequality that people face now. So how does radicalism address that.

And I don’t appreciate being entirely dismissed for thinking that “extremist” and “fundamentalist” (both riffs on how they’re used with religious groups) are damaging to and preventing the problems being taken seriously. I joked about the extremists, and in my mind I was thinking about the types who want to do away with the presumption of innocence when it comes to rape, and instead of someone asking what I meant, or even taking it at the obvious level that I was joking about the “loo-loo balls” I’m called an “asshole” and am the reason why women don’t like posting here. I’m deeply offended by that.

*Although it depends on the extent of the radicalism. Catholics in Northern Ireland during the 1960’s and 70’s had it far worse than women in America during the same period. And while I can understand and sympathise with people joining the IRA, I’d like to think I would have been one of the people supporting democratic means like John Hume (Nobel Peace Prize Winner) who founded a lot of himself on ideas put forward by MLK.

Wasn’t equating gender equality w/ Jim Crow. Was saying that future attenuation of current problems not satisfactory to those suffering them right now.

Sorry you feel dismissed by others, and I’m sorry someone called you an asshole and that offended you. Could be useful to know how that feels, though.

Am I the only one who REALLY wants some purple-prose mother-fucker to write up all 13 books of the Elemenstor Saga based upon the Wiki with as much ludicrous detail and atrocious writing as possible?

Because I’d buy the ever-loving shit out of that.

For some reason, this entire thread makes me want to curse like there’s no goddamned tomorrow. I have no idea what might have caused that, though.

Eh, I was actually going to stay on the current topic, but then I realized that A) Most of my opinion on the matter had been put better by people far more eloquent than I and that B) My opinion is probably disgusting to most of society and that C) I am perfectly fine with that.

So, basically, sorry to RepoMan for screwing up the wonderful train of flaming that I’m sure he was enjoying reading :(

Good lord.

Wow, it’s dinosaurs but relevant at the same time!