It wasn’t making a joke of rape. It was making a joke of how certain quest structures in MMOs and other games make your supposed “hero” actually a ridiculously callous money-grabber.

This is all months old, so I don’t want to get into it too much, but you and Anders don’t get to dictate what a valid interpretation of the comic looks like – neither does Penny Arcade. Those who saw an offensive rape joke present a pretty easy to grasp, logical reading of the comic, and one that doesn’t even preclude yours. I think PA made the joke you were talking about, and used a tasteless rape joke as a set up.

You certainly can argue, as PA did in their response comic, that people are being over-sensitive, and that there’s a difference between fictional rape and actual rape. I think that case is a little beside the point, but it’s a legit argument to make. Telling someone they misread doesn’t work.

All interpretations are not equally valid; to assert that Penny Arcade’s comic makes a joke out of rape is odd, because the validity of the joke they’re presenting relies on the seriousness of rape in and of itself.

Trigger issues and the attitudes of the authors in response to criticism are a more valid attack on the comic, imo.

I won’t bother with an exegesis here because it’s not worth the time to do so. I will say that I’m not sure why the punchline being predicated on the seriousness of rape means they aren’t making a rape joke – every bit of transgressive comedy works like that. Dead baby jokes, racist jokes, holocaust jokes, these all look to get a laugh from things that aren’t funny. Depending on the spirit of the comedy, it can be successful or unsuccessful. A joke can get the wrong kind of laugh… some laughter can have a belittling/diminishing effect. That’s what the offended readers saw. But if you believe I’m just missing the point on this one, I’d say two things: 1.) PA isn’t that complicated. 2.) Keep in mind that you could be missing the point, too.

what the shit kinda condescending dumbcockery is this

mmm… Hey, if you want to get specific about why you disagree, we can get into it. I woke up late today and don’t mind procrastinating on my work. So you can tell me why you think I was being condescending (was it ‘exegesis’? I bet it was exegesis), I’ll sarcastically tell you that you misread me, you can explain again why people don’t get what the comic was actually saying, I’ll say something like, “Anybody who says ‘you’re too sensitive’ is usually just being hugely insensitive,” you might call me a troll/pedant/douche, and nobody’s mind will be changed.

Or we could skip right to that last part. You wouldn’t post what you’ve posted so far unless you were damn sure you’re right, and I don’t really care to try and convince you otherwise.

no, it was the whole “i can’t be bothered to explain why, but you could be missing the point, too” thing

and apparently you still can’t be bothered to explain why

i haven’t ever been afraid of learning something new or admitting i was wrong and i ain’t starting now. but you gotta be able to back up your claims. and some claims are going to be a lot harder to back up than others. ‘extraordinary claims’ and all that

you’re hesitant because you know you have a long, long row to hoe here and that at the end the frost might come and wreck your whole crop. well, that’s a pretty legitimate fear, because I think that, in the absence of an antagonistic presence calling you out (aaron and me in this case) you’d expend the effort and see where you forgot to carry the two and realize, “aww shit, I can see how, if they come from a certain perspective, they’re absolutely right to think what they’re thinking, without really detracting at all from the point I was trying to make”

because there is a legitimate non-rape-culture reason to reject the anti-dickwolves hysterics, and it is the reason aaron and i have already given you.

it’s the moment when “i’m not sure why the punchline being predicated on the seriousness of rape means they aren’t making a rape joke” becomes, “oh, that’s why”

anyway… have a nice evening, it’s past my bedtime

All I’ll say is to look again at the reaction; how many except for the guest poster on Shakesville bothered to react to the first comic? As Amanda Marcotte wrote in one of the links above, there are limits to good sense in critiquing humour.

You certainly can argue, as PA did in their response comic, that people are being over-sensitive, and that there’s a difference between fictional rape and actual rape. I think that case is a little beside the point, but it’s a legit argument to make. Telling someone they misread doesn’t work.

The second comic is the problem, because it minimizes the experience of rape survivors about a hundred to an infinity times more than the first comic, which is why most of the negative response is specifically to that.

Thanks everyone for correcting me. I misread the original link I got that from. Though the original isn’t any better (context is everything). PA’s design is more than tasteless.

Again thanks and yes I’m dumb (more often than not).

My reticence isn’t a dodge: I didn’t want to do a whole unpacking of the comic explaining myself because in other threads – mostly recently the Spartacus thread – my earnest and lengthy responses were seen as an attempt to win via quantity instead of quality, and on this board I’ve spent too much time working up arguments that’re casually dismissed in two seconds. But all right, let’s go ahead with it. I’ve still got to meet my writing quota, and I couldn’t think of a topic, so this works out well. Here’s two hours’ worth of row hoeing.

My reading of your position, minus the goading and rustic metaphors: Anyone who thinks that PA used rape to get a laugh performed a fundamental misreading of the comic.

Since you’ve certainly already heard the arguments from offended readers, I don’t think a rehashing of that will change your mind. I basically agree with this paragraph from Shakespeare’s Sister:

Rape isn’t a part of the game, so for the slave to explicitly state he is being raped is a “humorous” exaggeration. When he hero tells the slave his quest is complete and instructs him not to make it “weird,” we’re meant to laugh: “Haha, what a strange underreaction!”

The punchline is that the hero* is indifferent, and for that to be funny, he needs to be indifferent to something so-awful-it’s-funny: hence the rape (so awful) by dickwolves (it’s funny). So you don’t accept that. That’s fine. Here’s two reasons why you should.

First, proximity. If I hear the word rape and I’m supposed to be laughing two seconds later, that’s a good sign I’m hearing a rape joke. The precise mechanics almost become irrelevant – you’re putting rape and a good belly laugh side by side. That’s when I think laughter becomes dangerous/dismissive. Laughter is automatic and unconscious, so there’s consequences to telling jokes like this. It creates Pavlovian responses (I laughed at this joke, therefore this joke is funny, therefore rape is funny) which are irrational but still potent. And in breaking a taboo for a joke, it begins to normalize that taboo. One joke can’t be held responsible for a rape culture any more than one drop of water can be held responsible for the Grand Canyon, but we’ve still got the Grand Canyon and we still have a rape culture.**

Second, the sheer number of people who were pissed off about this. The fact that this thing has its own tumblr says to me the plaintiffs aren’t exactly a minority. Of course, “what’s popular isn’t always what’s right,” etc., but in any field of interpretation which is almost completely subjective, popularity correlates with correctness. Now I was an English major, and I heard a lot of really dumb, straight-up wrong interpretations. I don’t mean to say anything goes. Personally, I think the offended interpretation is in no way far-fetched, and was my first reaction on reading the comic. But if it isn’t, the burden of proof is on you guys for that one. So far I’ve only heard flat, general assertions:

There was no reason to get upset with the first comic

It wasn’t making a joke of rape.

Aaron actually makes a counter-critique – the joke doesn’t work unless we agree rape is terrible – but I think they’re exploiting the fact that this particular society thinks rape is terrible. If Gabe and Tycho thought it was really terrible, they wouldn’t have made this comic. But who’s right and who’s wrong isn’t the main issue at hand, here. People tell bad jokes on the internet all the time. It’s the spirit of this joke which bothers me most.

What I find troubling about both PA’s position and the position of their apologists is the reflexive certitude. It makes sense here, since we plaintiffs are basically accusing you (in the general sense, not you in particular, Rimbo) of a callous, cavalier attitude towards something as awful as rape. In your position I too would probably outright reject the idea rather than acknowledge its possibility. Nobody thinks they’re an asshole, after all. And honestly, I wouldn’t call the PA guys assholes for putting up the comic, or you an asshole for defending it. I think intent is what decides that, and I doubt PA intended to be so callous.

But people say a lot of hurtful things without meaning to, and its in those moments where a non-asshole apologizes – whether he means it or not. Because at that point, you’ve been made aware of the offense, and you’re deciding whether or not that offense is “valid.” And I’m not sure validity comes into play – you can claim they got upset for the wrong reasons, but unless you’re 100% sure you’re right, you can’t dismiss the resulting, genuine offense.

PA dismissed it (and are still dismissing it, though more softly). Tycho’s response, “those who felt that we were somehow advocating the actual rape of human beings,” doesn’t at all characterize the nature of the offense, and smacks of a straw man defense mechanism. How to reconcile the dissonance between “I think, therefore I think I am right” and “you’re an asshole”? Turn the people calling you an asshole into morons! Rimbo, you do the same thing with your phrasing:

the anti-dickwolves hysterics
Is that really any way to announce you’re serious about considering another perspective? It’s also telling that you’d use the word hysterics, which, with its connotations of men dismissing females as irrational, is a microcosm of this whole issue.

Below Tycho’s post, Gabe invokes the Humorist’s Bill of Rights. Freedom of speech! If you don’t like it, don’t read it! I agree with that – comedians need to have the ability to go anywhere with their comedy. Nothing is off-limits (though the less appropriate the joke, the funnier it has to be) because who’s to say what’s appropriate and what’s not? Censorship is evil. But this is more a question of tact; censorship says “You cannot say this,” while tact just says, “You probably shouldn’t say this.”

We all have an inner censor who tells us when to bite our tongue. The censor is calibrated by our culture and our relationship to it. Read through the PA archives and you get a very clear sense of their personal subculture simply by seeing what it is they find funny. And they find gay jokes and dickwolves jokes funny, among other things. It marks them as socially privileged straight, white, geek, males. They’ve made a good living catering to that audience, and most of the time you don’t even have to check every box: you just have to be a geek. “The Sixth Slave,” though, is an example of those deeply exclusive strips where they put the shingle out on their boy’s clubhouse: no feminists, no gays, no rape victims, etc. Which shows to me a very troubling lack of empathy. They are the biggest wecomic going. They have an audience in the millions. And a number of people in that audience went online, opened up PA, saw that comic, and were reminded of a deep pain while luckier people got to laugh about it. Not only that, but a lot of rape accusations are dismissed by the only people who can do something about them, a scenario reenacted by the last panel.

Apparently they did not anticipate that this comic would be offensive. Gabe writes, “There is no way we can know what each and every person who reads the comic has decided to find offensive.” I would think it’d be pretty easy to write this comic, look at it, and realize, “Oh, right, anybody who’s been raped would of course find this offensive.” Whether they agree with it or not is another matter – this is just a simple question of utility. Will this joke be worth the offense it causes? Apparently they thought so.

But maybe they honestly were taken aback, and they simply lack the empathic equipment to imagine another person’s response. Ignorance isn’t an excuse in this case – they should have known better, they have a responsibility to know better. They’re a webcomic. Their reason for existing is to provide three chuckles a week, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Shit-stirring at that scale should be left to the Ricky Gervais’s, Louis CKs, and George Carlins of the world, who do it a little more responsibly.

I feel like the people who were offended were right in being offended, but even if I didn’t, I think they have the right to be offended. It just seems like good practice not to make these kinds of jokes. What’s the downside? It’s like with global warming. Say that in fifty years irrefutable proof shows that global warming is a myth, and that hybrid cars and recycling don’t do shit to save the environment. Does that mean it was a bad idea to drive hybrids and recycle? No, it didn’t cost us anything except our right to drive obnoxious SUVs and be lazy with our trash. Same thing for PA – are they really placing their own right to make rape jokes over the feelings of their audience? Is that something worth going to the mat over?

*This is a total sidebar, but isn’t it kind of interesting how the hero is a wolfman? Perhaps he’s related to the dickwolves, and excusing their crimes.
**Just came across this page… I even used the same analogy as her. So if you want a fuller explication of this paragraph, go ahead and read that too. It’s kind of bizarre how closely my ideas mimic hers. Luckily this isn’t for a class, so you’ll believe me when I say I didn’t plagiarize.

A little bit, maybe, but it’s for highlighting the ridiculosity of the whole issue, i.e. if you’re offended enough by a single comic out of thousands to the extent of boycotting a convention that’s pretty much about everything BUT the comic at this point, you’re a humorless twerp and we don’t want you here. I can get behind that.

So, this is your thesis, yet …

By this logic Jonathan Swift was the original dead baby comic who bravely paved the way for the English to eat all those tasty tasty babies. Or perhaps you’re just defining the nature of laughter narrowly to prove a point?

Two things. According to the tumblr(italicized) only one person was pissed off at the original comic, well enough to blog about it. More probably were in private. Enough to be considered “sheer”? We don’t really know and it’s disingenuous to pretend you do. As for the tumblr thing … you’re conflating the outrage with their response to the people who criticized the original comic. Which Aaron already pointed out was much more ripe for criticism. And I agree with him.

So … you conflate the original comic with the fallout to their reaction to the criticism of the original comic to make an appeal to the masses that your view is the right one?

Wait … why is the burden of proof on everyone but you? Because they aren’t specific enough with their assertions? Except when they are as evidenced below?

The “who’s right and who’s wrong” thing is dismissive and smug. And I honestly can’t tell what you’re arguing for here. That the joke would only work in Azeroth? Because they don’t have a rape culture and our society does? And therefore Aaron’s point is invalid?

And I’m still not convinced you get the actual joke. Or is it just not ok to make any sort of joke about any sort of horrible thing (like rape)… even if the joke is meant to point out that the thing itself is horrible?

I’m not calling you an asshole. I’m just saying you look like one and quack like one.

The hysterics thing is a cheap shot at best. The word is not inherently gender specific and even if it has been used in such a way in the past doesn’t mean that Rimbo is using it that way now.

You’re right. They overreacted and got defensive because they felt they were under attack when people accused them of promoting rape culture. And honestly they’ve probably done some harm. It would have been better had they reacted earnestly and pointed out that the joke was not meant at all to lessen the atrocity of rape, but rather to point out that it isn’t very heroic to ignore the cries of those that need help just because some arbitrary quota is fulfilled.

But earnestness has no place on the internet.

As for the rest of your post … you make a very convincing Helen Lovejoy. Everyone’s idea of what the appropriate level of self censorship is going to be completely different so suggesting that they adhere to your particular level is rather self-serving. Or maybe you just meant that we should all slide down the slippery slope of making sure no one gets offended, ever. Free speech includes things that everyone doesn’t want to hear.

You’re right that everyone has the right to be offended, but noone has the right to NOT be offended. You think all laughter is inherently desensitizing? Good luck convincing any of us of that position. I’m tempted to post some doug stanhope or jimmy carr set closers in an attempt to kill you over the internet.

I’d like to thank mrmolecule88 for his fine work in steering this thread right off the cliff and into the acid lake that is P&R.

As the Taco Bell thread proved, anything can be steered right off the cliff and into the acid lake that is P&R.

I guess these would be appropriate, then.

I agree with the earlier Pandagon post in this:

  1. Someone at Shakesville takes offense. I found the blog post an annoying rationalization for disliking humor in general, which the blogger admits she does. I find the “but rape is real!” argument against jokes of this nature to be a disingenuous one. Slavery is also real, as is murder and general violence. But there’s no way that the blogger would have gotten mad about jokes in those veins, but a joke about a form of torture that is supposed to sound over the top and mystical got her into offended mode.

I also didn’t like the post because I object to people who use survivors as a rhetorical device to shield their arguments from criticism. I feel, as a rape survivor, way more dehumanized by this post that purports to speak for survivors than I ever could by the Penny Arcade comic. I reject and resent the suggestion that having been sexually assaulted in my past makes me unable to see that this joke for what it was. I think this rhetorical device of casting survivors as a group of women too delicate to even understand context and meaning, while well-meaning, actually hurts rape survivors by reinforcing the erroneous notion that once a woman is raped, she’s forever ruined and broken. I don’t like being used as a rhetorical weapon in a general rant against comedy. I’m not saying all survivors would agree or disagree with me. That’s my point. I really dislike the dehumanizing way survivors are often lumped together as one big group that shares a single opinion or worldview that just happens to coincide with the one the blogger is arguing.

The sheer outrage about this is that they reacted in a way that would be impossible to separate from people defending themselves for actually minimizing rape, and did it in a quite unfunny way.

We are literally having the same fight we had the first time around.

You should have seen what I did to the next batman movie thread. I’m slightly embarrassed.

mrmolecule88 perpetuates P&R culture.