I disagree Rimbo, there might be a subsection of people who have some sort of agenda that you and Ilium seem to assign, but a lot of us are just disappointed in the way they and their fans handled it.

For example, when the Daily Show was criticized for being sexist, instead of demeaning their critics, they came out with a piece from their female staff members telling them why they were wrong. They did it in a mature, but also humorous fashion.

Gabe and Tycho could have taken the high road (or just ignored it,) but their reaction just reinforces the stereotype that gamer culture is full of immature manchildren.

So I’m looking at the Dickwolves T-shirt, and honestly, its not offensive. It’s not like it has any phallic drawings on it, and their is no rape at all implied by the T-shirt itself. Not saying I’d buy one, but considering ‘Dick’ in today’s slang just means someone who is an a unrepentant jerk, it wouldn’t be all that different than a shirt that said Jerkwolves.

Context is everything. Anyone familiar with the strip would know what dickwolves meant. It’s likely many people going to PAX might be familiar with the strip. It’s not the explicit nature of dickwolves (or their drawing) that got some people upset.

I disagree, Rimbo, since most of the discussion (and indeed, any sensible discussion) is about the second comic. The context and meaning of the second strip is completely outside of the gamer context, and more into the public discourse context. While your analysis would fit if a lot of feminists had reacted to PA’s dickwolves strip, they didn’t, rather they overreacted to one guest blogger on the wide interwebs, and the second strip is perfectly valid for a critique based on the language of rape apologia and rape culture. Which of course resulted in a lot of angry nerds “imposing an inappropriate context onto that criticism”.

That’s a very good summary and I agree with it.

The initial joke was not intended to hurt, the blogger had (self admittedly) overreacted, then PA went on the passive aggressive offensive which only encouraged a lot of immature gamers to side with them.

Sad, really.

A dickwolf isn’t offensive. This isn’t criticism from the Moral Majority.
It’s more like, the raping dickwolves are used in the original strip to denote the horror suffered by the slaves. It’s not a rape joke, and its purpose is not to minimize the horror of rape. Then the follow-up comic comes out and then there’s this huge debate, and then they offer a shirt that signals that you’re on “Team Dickwolves”.

Jesus, people. Maybe we need a gamer pope to clear this shit up.

Context is everything. And the context of the original strip is an MMO joke.
People should stop bending over backwards to be offended at an internet comic strip.

There are plenty of actually offensive things to be offended at. Like real rape, child pornography and the like.

EDIT: and those State Farm commercials - what is with that guy?

We need a child rapist apologist?

I’m not offended by the strip and even their second strip I found funny (Gabe’s facial expression is priceless in the last panel). I said basically the same thing Anders Hallin did. I edited my post to stop short of calling the shirt a jersey for rapists, but that’s essentially what the design is and is meant to signal.

I’m sure to the PA guys the shirt signals not being a humorless feminist, but they are trying to do that by not only identifying themselves as rapists in jest but by selling merchandise too so other people can self-identify as mock rapists.

It’s basically trolling by merchandise, but in this case, they were trolling “over-sensitive” rape victims. Yeah, classy.

I like the gamer pope suggestion. He would oversee a gamer hierarchy, who would have quietly shuffled Gabe and Tycho to another webcomic entirely when they started making a mess.

If I were the gamer pope, I would shuffle them off to CAD. :P

I’m not certain that it would have been in PA’s best interests to ignore this. Or any blogs that are involved, for that matter.

Honestly PA are getting all sorts of attention from this, and they do tend to court controversy, especially when they think it will endear them to their fan-base. Likewise, the amount of righteous indignation from the other side has nicely driven up the traffic to their various blog sites.

Gabe and Tycho get to once again prove that they are still edgy after all these years and they get increased traffic from people that might have drifted away from PA. The various blogs that are madly cross-linking get a huge amount of hits because of the controversy. Really, though there may be some honest bad feelings on both sides, they’re probably very happy that the controversy has managed to extend itself to another 15 minutes of Internet notoriety and they’d be secretly disappointed if one side or the other admitted defeat and apologized.

For my part, I had not seen Lum’s blog for many years (I think I was playing EverQuest at the time). He’ll get more traffic from me now that I have rediscovered it. Win/win!

Really? I’m pretty sure that is not what it is meant to signal. But you are of course free to interpret it anyway you want. I wonder if that obligates you to buy the supposed “Anti-Dickwolf” t-shirt you have already identified as distasteful?

I’m sure to the PA guys the shirt signals not being a humorless feminist, but they are trying to do that by not only identifying themselves as rapists in jest but by selling merchandise too so other people can self-identify as mock rapists.

It’s basically trolling by merchandise, but in this case, they were trolling “over-sensitive” rape victims. Yeah, classy.

Or, they are trolling people who are accusing them of being Rape Advocates. You keep talking about context, and the context is a joke…about the lives of MMO NPC’s. The context of the t-shirt (which I wouldn’t buy or wear personally, as clothing with obscenities on it is the equivalent of Truck Nutz for your chest IMO) is not rape advocacy either. But again, if you honestly believe stopping PA from making jokes with the word “rape” in them will actually do any good - godspeed.

I’m wondering why all the hub-bub about an internet comic strip that frequently features outrageous language and over-the-top violence done by two guys who, if anyone who is being intellectually honest, knows is not “pro-rape” and actually do a lot of good and have been ambassadors for the gaming community (which popularity has rendered as a meaningless term, you might as well say “the oxygen breathing community” but there you go)

There are much more deserving targets* that don’t require the type of cognitive dissonance necessary to accuse PA of doing what they are not.

*Seriously, this shit is odious.

@Rimbo:
I’m a little flummoxed about how your reading supposedly differs from mine. You say yours accounts for the details of the work, while mine doesn’t… which ones did I leave out?

what matters is that it be something horrible, to highlight the supposed callousness of the hero… that act is one on a very, very short list of horrors worthy of making the satire work.

the hero* is indifferent, and for that to be funny, he needs to be indifferent to something so-awful-it’s-funny

So I think everybody agrees about the mechanics of the joke. Where the interpretation diverges is in how we see rape as being used. You see it as a step to get us to the primary punchline about MMO quest design. I see it as an intermediate step as well, but considering the subject matter, the volume on that gets cranked up so loud and drowns out the commentary on MMOs. Your position is based on the idea that

That’s because the specific offensive act, in the context of the strip, doesn’t matter

and mine is based on a dismay that someone could think that. Rape isn’t something you can strip the specificity from. “Oh, they could have picked any really horrible crime.” Yes – but they picked rape. And that’s something you can’t really repurpose. It’s just too loaded, like the n-word.

I believe that words and fictions have incredible power. I believe that anyone with a fully-functioning sense of empathy would immediately see this is wrong. If you don’t believe words and fictions matter – it’s just make believe on the internet, no biggie – and if you can’t get into the headspace of a rape victim, it makes sense why this doesn’t seem like a big deal. As someone who’s been privileged in every sense due to the accident of his birth, I try not to write off people with life experiences I can’t fully comprehend. If a rape victim says “this is over the line,” I’m going to believe that person – it’s hubris to think you know better.

Your defense of PA as latter-day Swifts hangs together fine, and I could absolutely buy it provided I knew nothing else about Penny Arcade. But it doesn’t tally with their track record or response to the controversy. Gabe said, “Hey, this is a comic with a fruit rapist – and you’re surprised we’d go here?” With that in mind, your explanation doesn’t satisfy Occam’s Razor. If I hear a 7th grader call his friend a ‘fag,’ it’s possible he’s ironizing societal expectations of his own homophobia, and holding a mirror up to the rest of us for tacitly permitting this kind of thing. It’s more likely he’s a 13-year-old and thinks his friend is a fag, and never thought much about the ramifications of his language. If “The Sixth Slave” was meant to be some kind of PSA about rape awareness, how would you explain the hostile response? If PA was on the side of the offended, wouldn’t they say, “You know what, we were going for something here and you misread us, but really we’re on your team. Sorry for the mix up.” Instead Gabe grabbed a bucket of gasoline and antagonized those who complained. Which makes it hard to buy them as making a “plea for more sensitivity, not less.” Because that’s what they complained about – people being over-sensitive.

I’m not sure how you can impute an agenda to someone like Courtney Stanton, who is a rape survivor and suffers PTSD. “Agenda” feels a little too calculating in this circumstance – it’s not like she’s got some ulterior motive. She underwent trauma and PA poked that with a stick.

Anyway, this probably marks the point where we come to that impasse. If you feel like there’s anything more to be gained from further discussion, you’ve still got my full attention. If not, I thank you for your thoughtful response, and let us never speak of this again.

@BlueJackalope: Just remember that nobody’s calling PA rape advocates. That’s a simplifying distortion which is not fair to those you disagree with.

Mordrak seems to be here. I’ve always found Mordrak pretty even keeled, so maybe I’m just over-sensitive as a post-feminist humor survivor, but that’s how this reads to me.

Ah, the Internet, helping people who want to take offence find offence to take, no matter how great the reach.

And why aren’t we railing against their previous rape jokes?

Agreed! Get Railing! Harrumph!

I found that distasteful as a way of mocking people that criticized them, when I was under the wrong impression about the context of the design. Is it the best response to their t-shirt? I don’t know, but the context shifted and I have to understand her design in new light.

The real design is more odious in context as a response to criticism about their comic.

Or, they are trolling people who are accusing them of being Rape Advocates. You keep talking about context, and the context is a joke…about the lives of MMO NPC’s. The context of the t-shirt (which I wouldn’t buy or wear personally, as clothing with obscenities on it is the equivalent of Truck Nutz for your chest IMO) is not rape advocacy either. But again, if you honestly believe stopping PA from making jokes with the word “rape” in them will actually do any good - godspeed.

I never once said PA should stop making jokes using the word rape. I’m sure their intended targets in their head are prudes or oversensitive people (perhaps justifiably oversensitive as one rape victim that took issue with it basically said). But when you look at what the shirt actually represents, it’s a sports like logo for dickwolves… saying, “hey I’m a fan of dickwolves.” It’s ironic and mocking identification with and essentially rooting for “Team Rape” as a means of trolling, where PA really went too far and it’s the basic defensive non-apology that shows they don’t get why.

I don’t think PA are evil people that advocate rape, but in an effort to be ironic, edgy, and huge trolls, the Team Dickwolves shirt went too far.

There are much more deserving targets* that don’t require the type of cognitive dissonance necessary to accuse PA of doing what they are not.

*Seriously, this shit is odious.

Obviously on a gamer board, people talk about a gamer comic strip because it’s topical. And in my honest opinion, probably feel a connection to the brand more so than something like Dolce & Gabana, American Apparel, etc. I think the reason people are troubled by PA response (again, not the comic) is because you know, it’s something they enjoyed in the past and care about it and its creators.

They picked “every night we are raped to sleep by the dickwolves”

A horrible hilarious, impossible crime, perpetrated by mythological beasts.

I believe that words and fictions have incredible power. I believe that anyone with a fully-functioning sense of empathy would immediately see this is wrong.
My god, how can you not have empathy for my malfunctioning sense of empathy? You…monster!

If you don’t believe words and fictions matter – it’s just make believe on the internet, no biggie…
Oh cool, that’s a relief, I thought for a second I’d have to throw away my Urotsukidoji collection. Whew! That took me years and no small amount of money and sweat to acquire, I’d hate to have to toss…

– and if you can’t get into the headspace of a rape victim, it makes sense why this doesn’t seem like a big deal.
OH GODDAMN IT!

As someone who’s been privileged in every sense due to the accident of his birth, I try not to write off people with life experiences I can’t fully comprehend. If a rape victim says “this is over the line,” I’m going to believe that person – it’s hubris to think you know better.
Thank you, thank you for feeling for those us who have no feels.

Your defense of PA as latter-day Swifts hangs together fine, and I could absolutely buy it provided I knew nothing else about Penny Arcade. But it doesn’t tally with their track record or response to the controversy. Gabe said, “Hey, this is a comic with a fruit rapist – and you’re surprised we’d go here?” With that in mind, your explanation doesn’t satisfy Occam’s Razor.
You mean the same razor that says they made a joke and folks went out of their way to be offended?

If I hear a 7th grader call his friend a ‘fag,’ it’s possible he’s ironizing societal expectations of his own homophobia, and holding a mirror up to the rest of us for tacitly permitting this kind of thing. It’s more likely he’s a 13-year-old and thinks his friend is a fag, and never thought much about the ramifications of his language.
Haven’t played much Halo have you? Those kids are lexicographical satirists so perceptive Mencken would weep.

If “The Sixth Slave” was meant to be some kind of PSA about rape awareness,
Wait…what? Did someone actually say this? I can see Rimbo saying something like it, but he’s a (no offense intended) a maroon sometimes.

how would you explain the hostile response?
transference?

If PA was on the side of the offended, wouldn’t they say, “You know what, we were going for something here and you misread us, but really we’re on your team. Sorry for the mix up.” Instead Gabe grabbed a bucket of gasoline and antagonized those who complained.
He’s not on the side of the offended? By which I mean, He isn’t on the side of the offended. He is allowed not to agree with other people’s opinion of him and his work.

Which makes it hard to buy them as making a “plea for more sensitivity, not less.” Because that’s what they complained about – people being over-sensitive.
I can’t be bothered to unpack this, you win this point, whatever it is. Sir.

I’m not sure how you can impute an agenda to someone like Courtney Stanton, who is a rape survivor and suffers PTSD. “Agenda” feels a little too calculating in this circumstance – it’s not like she’s got some ulterior motive. She underwent trauma and PA poked that with a stick.
Was a Owlbear or Hecatonchires involved?

Seriously though. The comic was just that, a comic. Thankfully PA does not have to allow for the possible feelings of every single viewer of their comic, just as nobody is forced to read the silly things. Ms. Stanton is allowed to react however she wants to the strip, she, and other folks, need to understand her experience does not make her reaction more valid than anyone else’s.

Anyway, this probably marks the point where we come to that impasse. If you feel like there’s anything more to be gained from further discussion, you’ve still got my full attention. If not, I thank you for your thoughtful response, and let us never speak of this again.
Word.