But he’s not - he’s saying sorry, in a direct a way as he can. Which isn’t that direct, to be frank. But so?

I’m going to make a guess (and this is based on nothing but the facts and figures stored in my ass) that far more people were making harassing and threatening e-mails, comments and tweets to people on the other side of the debate as were making them to Mike or Jerry.

My information says different! Also from ass!

So I guess tragedy really is when you stub your toe, but apathy is when you ignore people harassing rape victims for three days.

He called one guy on it by Twitter. And yes, they could have been quicker off the mark.

And frankly, conditional apologies are always bullshit.

Well, I suspect he doesn’t think he’s really done anything wrong apart from being snarky and dismissive. Certainly he’d be lying if he apologised for the original comic.

I actually liked Tycho’s response, because it was measured, thoughtful and a bit wise. (note return to thread topic)

On The Matter of Dickwolves

Thursday, February 3 2011 - 11:04 AM
by: Tycho

One of the most important essays I’ve ever read is by Philip K Dick, entitled “How To Build A Universe That Doesn’t Fall Apart Two Days Later.” In it, he describes his idea that people can experience reality in such different ways that they lack a common language and therefore can’t relate to one another. He’s talking about schizophrenia, but he’s really talking (as is his way) about all people, everywhere.

The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown of communication… and there is the real illness.

If I haven’t been seen to discuss The Matter Of Dickwolves, this is the reason why. I’m not entirely certain that a conversation is possible. This isn’t mere cynicism - this is a fully rational assessment of the situation. The perspectives in play, the lenses, are too different: one side believes that not according the issue of rape the proper respect fuels a kind of perverse, perpetual engine called rape culture. There is a vast, specific lexicon and hundreds of tacit assumptions that gird it. The other side (that’s me, but not just me) believes that when it comes to expression nothing is off the table. It is the creator’s prerogative to create something - even something grotesque - out of anything they can find.

The fact of the matter is that the strip that started all this is about how empty, amoral, and borderline vile electronic heroism actually is. When I look at it now, it’s hard to imagine the chaos this comic stands at the center of. To the extent that it discusses rape, it is in the context of men and an imaginary creature. It’s certainly not the “joke.” The depicted scenario seemed so ridiculous to us, so unmoored from reality, and its indictment of player “morality” so complete, we felt like it was worth doing.

I have to tell you that we could never have conceived that people would construe the comic as pro-rape; this unfortunate fact may help you to understand everything that followed. I have a daughter who is not yet two years of age, and I am flooded with hormones every time I look at her which say “this, this is why you are here.” I don’t have any intention of going into specifics, but speculating about my own sexual history or the sexual history of the people we know is profoundly unwise. I will also tell you that people deal with horror of this kind in different ways, and one of them is with humor. There’s no monolithic “woman” just as there is no monolithic “feminist” just as there is no “man,” no “true” way of dealing with tragedy. We think of the strip as one of those glass tanks with the gloves that reach in, a safe place to experiment with dangerous ideas, which we’ve more or less been doing continually for twelve years.

We make disgusting, immoral comics on occasion to be sure; we’re used to correspondence in that vein. But when mail started to come in to the effect that we were perpetuating a fundamental social conspiracy to rape, we couldn’t believe what we were reading. That is the entire point of the second strip, which some people took as a literal response or apology, neither of which was its intended purpose. The only people who are pro-rape are rapists. The idea that you would have to specifically enunciate an idea like that is almost overwhelming. It’s self-evident. Hence, the comic.

I’ve received an incredible education during the ordeal, and been exposed to an amazing range of thought, from so-called “radical feminism” to a wholly opposed, Lewis Carroll, through-the-looking-glass mode of thinking called Men’s Rights Activism. It’s my default position to figure out what is wrong with me so that I can make peace, and the web has been very good to me in this regard. I have learned many new words and been altered irrevocably by the months long process. I’m not certain we’ll ever see eye to eye. But they’re not evil, or mendacious; I understand their intent, why this happened. I’m not interested in a repeat performance.

The other reason I didn’t speak about it is because I didn’t want to draw unwanted attention to the sources of complaint. Apparently, there are people who imagine they’re doing us some kind of a favor being jackasses and saying terrible things to critics of the site. Well, I’m a big boy, and I can handle my own shit. If you’re a reader, and not somebody just out for a scrap, if you love me at all you’ll put an end to that kind of bullshit. When someone believes something about you that isn’t true, the optimal strategy isn’t to prove to them time and time again that they were actually right all along - that you may be dismissed out of hand, that you have no merit. I assume that’s the opposite of you want.

Can we all agree that threatening to kill someone’s wife and children, as happened yesterday, has no place in any fucking society? This is why I had to say something: because people who imagine themselves to be “agents” of each side have now graduated to threats of actual, physical violence.
I don’t expect to mollify anyone with this - I think we’re long past that. When I look at the state of play now, dialectically, I don’t even recognize it: in the absence of my participation, in the abdication of my responsibility to communicate, the entire dialogue is based on a sequence of assumptions about each party so long that it’s impossible to untangle. It’s entirely possible that we will have lost readership, or worse, we’ll acquire a unique new demographic hungry for rape material that will be profoundly disappointed by jokes about tabletop wargames or treatises on forks. As I said, so much of this happened because I assumed that a genuine dialogue was impossible. Maybe I was wrong. It’s certainly happened before.
But I am who I am, in the end; the comics I make are the result of my damage. I can’t put it any more succinctly than that.

They should get the main figurehead of the “opposition”, if such a person exists (is it this Courtney Stanton person? Or someone else?) and have them on an episode of PATV. Have a reasonable discussion, agree to disagree, etc. There’s nothing that happened here which couldn’t have been solved by just picking up the phone or talking in person.

God damn internet.

Courtney Stanton was invited to speak at PAX and refused.

My figures may just be pulled from my ass, but it’s hard to imagine that Courtney Stanton has a bigger and more vocal fanbase than does PA. Also, it seems to me that rape victims are far less likely to start up twitter accounts with names like TeamRape and post that people should be raped for having a differing opinion.

Tycho, in the post Sebmojo quoted, says a lot of what I was trying to say as well: “The fact of the matter is that the strip that started all this is about how empty, amoral, and borderline vile electronic heroism actually is.”

So if roughly the same proportion of people on each side are deranged and unreasonable that proves your point how?

Ah, stuff it. I actually don’t want to fight with you, running on fumes here.

Deadspace guy’s oddly appropriate line in the first panel.

Death threats by way of Twitter is a funny place to quit.

After a brush with women’s studies in college (I mistakenly signed up for a history course attached to women’s studies…), there is no more dour and inflammatory group than die hard feminists. Humor is not written into their circuitry, double so when it comes to something they are concerned about.

The strip was funny and it pointed out something most of us experienced RPG types have done… repeatedly.

Selling Dickwolves merch… that is a little skeezy. But people sell and wear t-shirts that are offensive all the time. I had a Hitler World Tour t-shirt in college. Hitler was literally responsible for countless human lives, dickwolves have not raped anyone in actuality. I was probably more skeezy for that shirt than if I bought a Dickwolves tee.

Could they have gone with a more tasteful riff? Maybe, but that would have diluted the comic in that gamers do all sorts of morally dodgy stuff to get a quest completed and games are set up that way.

But hey, welcome to the new America where you have the right to never be made fun of or used in a riff because your feelings might get hurt.

It was also, as is par for the course for Tycho, needlessly thick and verbose. Even with the subject matter aside, it was a chore to read. And I know how to read!

This is a pretty idiotic line of criticism.

I don’t see people saying that Penny Arcade shouldn’t be allowed to make fun of people, or that they should be arrested for hurting anyone’s feelings. Instead, I see them complaining that they didn’t like what was said… much like you’re complaining about them in return.

They get to complain about stuff that irks them just like you do.

And depressingly but predictably, the universal reaction on lum’s forum was ‘fuck those bitches’. There’s something like an eight page thread now in reaction to lum’s post on the subject, and it’s a goddamned death march to read that thing. It just keeps getting worse.

Does not fempute.

His normal posts are too shticky for me, but I thought this had some brilliant rhetoric in it. I liked how he claimed authority in the debate by virtue of being the author and also of his own sexual history, which he only hinted at. Doesn’t explicitly bring it up, but still puts it in play. And he did so without any finger pointing. Kind of impressive.

I don’t have any intention of going into specifics, but speculating about my own sexual history or the sexual history of the people we know is profoundly unwise. I will also tell you that people deal with horror of this kind in different ways, and one of them is with humor.

But I am who I am, in the end; the comics I make are the result of my damage. I can’t put it any more succinctly than that.

Well… yes.

In other news: water wet, drinkable, able to be seen through.

You are not a real person. Begone.

I still can’t believe that comic even caused this. Can we at least all agree, that the people with a problem with the original comic (not Gabe’s reactions) are pretty nuts?

As for Gabe’s response, I know guys just like him. He means well, but his rhetoric is often unsound and they get tangled in shitty spots because they just suck at conversing past superficial levels. But, y’know, he does mean well.

Also, I want the Dickwolves t-shirt. Because on it’s own it’s not offensive at all and it’s a pretty nice shirt.

That wasn’t meant to be another log on the fire… I’ve bowed out of that discussion. I was just speaking as a writer… I honestly thought that response was perfectly done from a craft standpoint. It’s hard as hell to achieve the tone he got without seeming aggrieved or holier-than-thou. I’ve never been so impressed with his writing before.

Sidebar:
I’ve been reading stuff for hours about this controversy and came across a lot of interesting writing. All the twitter wars, comment threads, and blog posts… there’s just so much reaction out there. For those of you who do buy the notion of a rape culture, I thought thiswas really affecting and insightful. (PA defenders, probably don’t read that – like I said, I’m not looking for a further fight.) And I liked the unapologetic fury of this tumblr. Pretty much everything on that debacle tumblr has something interesting to read. Oh, and this discussion thread that was linked earlier is pretty much exactly like this one… interesting to see how these arguments are repeated.

Eh, I find it to be much the same as this one, except for more female gamers posting.

You “like” it? It’s nice you can get some enjoyment out of Courtney Stanton’s pathological need to demonize Penny Arcade, but personally, I find it hard to look at.

I don’t think that tumblr is Courtney’s work, but another person who was upset at the whole PA thing.

Yeah, setting up strawmen by putting words in other peoples’ mouths is pretty entertaining.

I don’t think that’s a provable point.

I’m not sure how that really relates to the discussion at hand.