"A World in Arms"- A Carthage: The First Punic War PBF

[Navaronegun]

@Juan_Raigada

In retrospect (and I only realized this after seeing the results, at the time I thought you were making the right choices) the system is telling you to never put too many troops in garrison (ideal level is 10SP of infantry, which guarantees resisting for 2 attrition rolls on the extreme and 5 or 6 -two years- on average). Also, I think the Roman player must come into Sicily with the two consular armies together, not piecemeal, so the first battle of Messana against Hiero, a better leader with elite cavalry, has better chances of breaking the siege, defeating Hiero and forcing him to change allegiance, which puts Carthage on the defensive for the rest of the game. Those two decisions (activating Claudius before Fulvius and retreating into the city) were the main determinants of the results we saw, along with moderate luck in Carthage favor.

But nothing we saw on the first turn was an extreme outlier to expectations, although slightly unlikely and the unlikeliness always in Carthage favor. Note that the system does model unlikely battle results (where a force with, say a +8DRM to the combat roll can be severely hurt). But we have not encountered this yet.

See none of this bothers me. What bothers me is that it is all done with endless d10 die rolls and charts. If he wanted swings of fortune and outliers, there are many more entertaining ways to provide it.

But essentially, the game is a Manpower production attrition race. Rome will win, because she can produce more. But there is a lot of distracting hcrome all over the place. I say “distracting” because it is all in charts with the same formula for resolution each time. A freaking d10 on a chart with a freaking cascading result that is another d10 on a chart. Let me show our viewers an example of the “colorful, evocative” charts we are talking about:

Does that make you just FEEL elephants charging and right flanks buckling and cohorts about to give?

Or does it make you feel like you are looking at Insurance actuarial tables?

Roman Politics and 263 Actions coming soon!

[Juan_Raigada]

But how is that different than any other CRT? That’s what I don’t understand. Except for the cascading unpredictable result (which I think is a great way to adjust for the unpredictability of Ancient Warfare) we are just looking at a regular CRT with about 11 Modifiers, out of which only 3 or 4 are applied in most battles (and one of the modifiers is the base combat ratio).

On some SCW rolls we were rolling on a CRT with 4-5 modifiers total, pluc the basic combat ratio column, which here is a modifier, so we used up to 6 modifiers in some battles (much more than here on average). Yet you find that fundamentally different to this. I just don’t get it.

[Navaronegun]

@Juan_Raigada

But how is that different than any other CRT? That’s what I don’t understand. Except for the cascading unpredictable result (which I think is a great way to adjust for the unpredictability of Ancient Warfare) we are just looking at a regular CRT with about 11 Modifiers, out of which only 3 or 4 are applied in most battles (and one of the modifiers is the base combat ratio).

On some SCW rolls we were rolling on a CRT with 4-5 modifiers total (much more than here on average). Yet you find that fundamentally different to this.

Because every single other in-game mechanic uses that same resolution method! And there are sixteen pages of charts like that. And that is after you consolidated them into merely 16 pages on a pdf (thank you).

[Juan_Raigada]

Movement attrition requires no roll, it’s just a lookup (and I actually would have liked some randomness there). Other than that, you are mostly rolling for continuation and siege attrition.

Yes, there’s a chart overload, and I would like to see cards substituting some of the mechanics, but the charts with modifiers provide access to the proccess, which cards can not.

If you don’t like the presentation, I can see your point. It’s a matter of taste, but your assertion that chance (or fate) is the determining factor in the game is just not true.

@Navaronegun

Well his opinion in this system is that in Ancient Battles, planning matters not because random Fortuna determines all, as we shall see in the next entry.

this is what I was replying to.

[Navaronegun]

@Juan_Raigada

If you don’t like the presentation, I can see your point. It’s a matter of taste, but your assertion that chance (or fate) is the determining factor in the game is just not true.

Mechanics, not just presentation. To use SCW as an example, there were only a few die rolls every turn on a chart. Berg decided to have 16 pages of charts with endless die rolls. All throughout every phase. I can’t look at one in isolation when I am drowning in 10 others just like it. It doesn’t “stand out”. That’s mechanics, not “presentation”.

Random fortune plays a major roll in in individual results. But none of that matters, because it is all distraction from a manpower game. So all the operations in the game that we control are mmaterial to the plot. We are Rosencrantz and Guilderstern.

I think you nailed it earlier with your analysis of the game and it distills what I don’t like about it: It is really a Strategic Game, but it is pretending to be an Operational Game. There are all these willy-nilly things that happen but it’s all distraction from a manpower meat-grinder. Fine. So it becomes distracting busy-work because of the mechanical methods he chose to use. Which I would forgive him for in 1976. But this came out in 2010.

If you are going to distract me, don’t make me put an eyeshade on, Mr. Berg.

[Juan_Raigada]

That’s a more precise analysis and one I won’t dispute. If you don’t like the proccess of die rolling and chart consulting then this is not a game for you. I love it, it provides narrative and a meaty sense of simultation more “elegant” mechanics miss. For me, it’s not about the effect, but the way to get there. I like my wargames as much detailed in the proccess as possible so I can see, enjoy and evaluate the simulation. But this is a matter of taste and preference, and I know mine is unusual enough.

But I want to point out, again, that we have yet not seen any roll were fortune was unexpected given proper previous analysis. I think there’s a lot of possible planning in this game, but it’s strategic planning that gets narratively developed through the rolls. For me that’s exciting.

@Navaronegun

Mechanics, not just presentation. To use SCW as an example, there were only a few die rolls every turn on a chart.

And that’s what made it a lesser game for me. Too pre-ordained and not variable enough, without providing the simulation depth that could have compensated for that (so many “gamey” rules all over the place).

I like managing chaos, I guess.

[Navaronegun]

@Juan_Raigada

And that’s what made it a lesser game for me . Too pre-ordained and not variable enough, without providing the simulation depth that could have compensated for that.

I like managing chaos, I guess.

I do too, and SCW wasn’t at all near perfect as a game for me(very SPI “IGOUGO”). But let me give an example: I am a nut for Vietnam 1965-1975 by VG. Nick Karp provided the chaos by having multiple hidden systems, operational and strategic, to be managed by each player. As well, combat involves a series of interlocking decisions by players as the combat moves along. There are die rolls, made after players make choices when things get tactical.

The only “onerous” die rolling adventure is pacification rolls (all done province by province once per season, as an administration task. And that game was designed in 1984 when Empires in Arms’ chit competition battle system and leaders was considered adventurous, The Civil War’s use of Leaders on hexes by Eric Lee Smith provocative, and no one used “cards”.

There were a lot more choices on the design table than “Activate, move. Roll-look up chart, Roll-look up chart, Roll-look up chart, Roll-look up chart,. Augury, Roll-look up chart, Roll-look up chart. Siege, Roll-look up chart, Roll-look up chart.”

[Juan_Raigada]

What can I say, man? I like the game a lot and the thought proccess it forces on the players, plus the narrative discovery of the mechanics. For me the rolling to discover what happens is a feature because of how the modifiers are designed and what the rolls represent… I appretiate your criticism of it, but you are not going to make it share it… A lot of modern game design is bland as hell. that’s why I vastly prefer KDM to Gloomhaven, for example. And although I discovered wargames recently, I think I have a taste for the older design philosophy too.

But enough talk, let’s keep going with the game!

[Navaronegun]

Marcus Fulvius Flaccis is alone in Massena eating horse flesh. If only Caudex had sent word in time…what a fool Caudex was. And what a fix Flaccus was in.

Flaccus is starving. He should never have left the North.

A Visit from Pluto:
The roll is a net 7 (+1 for Pluto mortality rolls,under Flaccus’ rating) . Flaccus lives.

Because Flaccus is under seige, he is automatically Prorogued as a Proconsul with the Army in Sicily.

New Magistrates in the 263 Elections:

Consul: Aulus Atilius Calatinus #313
Field Consul: Quintus Lutatius Cerco #340
Praetor Urbanus: Numerus Fabius Buteo #330

These guys are OK. Excellent, actually.

Consul Aulus Atilius Calatinus opposed the war, and felt that it would lead to a showdown with Carthage. He is a man of ability and after Caudex’s disasters, is elected by the Senate to put things right. He immediately, using all his guile (1 Guile point) makes an appeal to the Senate for Reinforcements and new legions to reclaim the disaster in Sicily. He is confident and has a solid majority in the Senate. It is imperative that this catastrophe be put right!

Not only is he a man of ability, Aulus Atilius Calatinus is descended from the man who, along with Junius Brutus, put an end to the Monarchy in Rome and set this Republic up-Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus. The Senate MUST listen to this acorn from an old oak!

A 1 is rolled. Modified to 2 by the Guile Point.

The Senate gives…1 Legion.

The Field Consul is placed in Sicily and the Legion in Rheggium.

Next up: Carthaginian Politics, 263 BC

[Kev_Sharp]

Guys… Hi there as a long time player, I’ll just say this. You are or at least one of you are not really playing the system correctly.
Since Navaronegun is the newer of the two players, some one should of been coaching a bit here. 83 factors of Roman forces being sieged…Is he aware how the IDS works?
How could he make an informed decision about defense of a city let a lone actually choosing to retreat into the siege with that much force if he knew about the IDS factor and how attrition really works.

This is how games and the market perception are tainted by such uniformed play. Well I hope it gets better for both of you. Carthage can win nearly everytime on Auto victory if they know what they are doing. Otherwise it goes long haul and the longer the game goes the less chance Carthage has…well except when you put 2 Legions in a city…:)

[Rod_Humble]

Sup Kev. Its Rod from the AAC guild. Good to see you here!

[Kev_Sharp]

Hey mate. Had a bud share a link about this PBeM game. Remediation is in order! ;)

[Juan_Raigada]

@Kev_Sharp

Guys… Hi there as a long time player, I’ll just say this. You are or at least one of you are not really playing the system correctly.

Both of us are new, but I think I read the rules more intensely than @Navaronegun

But the first turn we were trying things. I didn’t realized how misguided it was to put so many troops inside the city until the attrition roll, and I thought he was doing the best move. A total of 10SP should be there, no more. I see that now.

I’m still enjoying the game a lot, and I’m loving the system, but at this point I think it is perhaps not that suited for the First Punic War. Historically is was a war with little maneovering and very few battles on land, and a lot of long sieges and years with very little going on, which makes iis play in this system a little bit slow… The rules and a lot of the detail seems focused around a probable Second Punic War game. That I think would be glorious.

If you see any rule mistake, please point it out so we can learn. The rules are not that complex, but horribly structured, and it’s easy to miss some stuff.

[Juan_Raigada]

The news of the war have rattled the Carthaginians, and the Barcids are able to wrestle power from the Magonids, proposing a new strategy to win the war ( family in power roll is a [9]http://orokos.com/roll/627814). I have a -4DRM, so adjusted it’s a 5. It is very unlikely for the Barcids to gain or remian in power).

The council deliberates on the war, but the Roman debacle projects a false sense of confidence on the rulers, and the council remains cautius and unwilling to commit more troops to the struggle (die roll was bad, but until the Romans gain a solid foothold, only a 9, and only in specific circumstances, will allow me to raise a third army that can move into Sicily -Carthage Army can’t leave Africa-). The thinking is that the Roman war is just one of many hotspot we have to divide our attention between.

This means I can only reinforce Hanno’s army with as much as the number of lost SP in the previous turn (which is so little it’s not really worth it) or build new ships.

We decide to start the building of an 18 squadron fleet at carthage. It will take one turn to become operative, but should help to maintain naval superiority for a while.

That, my friends, is a total of 180 ships (for the time being Carthage is limited to a maximum of 320 ships or 32 squadrons, we still have some leeway).

The roman player didn’t say it in his write-up, but he raised port capacity at Ostia. He needs to raise port capacity two times (Ostia and Neapolis) to gain the ability to do naval transport (which will help menacing other parts of the Carthaginina domains).

We draw a new admiral for this mighty fleet.

Ok, not the great combat commander (D rating) but two activations which should provide flexibility…

This is how things are at the beggining of 263BC:

Time to see the first activations.

[Juan_Raigada]

@Kev_Sharp

This is how games and the market perception are tainted by such uniformed play. Well I hope it gets better for both of you. Carthage can win nearly everytime on Auto victory if they know what they are doing.

It seems to me to get an auto Victory Carthage needs to take Messana (need either control there or to have a fleet in port), which I think is far from granted unless it falls on turn one. If Messana falls the Romans can take Panormus, Drepanum or Lilybaeum to stop the auto victory, and they have 3 turns to do that, and Carthage is not going to have the armies to challenge that (because they took Messana, so they are stuck with Hanno’s army and whatever remains of the Syracusan .

If Messana doesn’t fall and/or Hiero flips, auto victory is really unlikely, given the Romans ability to replenish loses and the difficulty of suceeding at a siege with 80 Roman SPs in Sicily attacking the besiegers…

Am I missing anything here?

[Juan_Raigada]

First pull is my newly appointed admiral, who, having his fleet still under construction, passes.

Next pull is a Roman Consul, so over to @Navaronegun

[Kev_Sharp]

ok.
So both are new. that explains a lot.
In a new system its often a good idea to coach each other. But of course this is play by Forum yes? That makes it harder.

The game is actually well suited to 1st Punic War for a host of reasons, but if you approach the game and mechanics the wrong way then sure… you will think it is broken or boring. The whole thread about too chart heavy is nonsense, we are dealing with a complex set of issues that are boiled down to 3-4 critical charts, then some very smart ideas to factor in the ‘craziness’ of ancient battles.

I dont want to tell you THE WAY to PLAY. But now that I have seen several games played on BGG and played 5-6 campaigns 4 as Carthage and one as rome, both sides have an opportunity to ‘maneuverer’ and play to their strengths.
Some ideas:
Carthage has to hold Lilybaeum and Syracuse at a minimum. The Rest of Sicily meh, But the first order of action is attempting to grab Messina BEFORE ROME. Then go about seeding towns with 1 or 2 steps to gain political and military control of Sicily then Corsica. Make Rome play whack a mole, all the while you build up your Navy, and keep naval units in every port you control to avoid the horrid siege DRM.
Then when you are near the time to sweep the naval game, you go big on raising armies, and attempt to take battle where ever you can at almost any odds… bleed the Romans.
Who have a tendency to react by “BUILD MORE LEGIONS”…then calmly announce auto victory via naval success. voila!

Ive never seen Carthage win sweeping the Italian peninsula, too much then falls into Romes hands, dictators, easier troop raises, etc. Its is supposed to be HARD for Rome to raise troops each year as the Republic wants to keep a choke on the Consuls. Do what you can to help that stay away from Rome. Focus on the North and the Islands and Sicily.

Then with those 3 cities you can switch to pursuit of a Naval Auto Win in 3-4 years.
Limit your recruiting, save those men until you need them. If Rome smells you are after the auto win he has things he can do to thwart you.
You get a minor head start on Rome at the beginning in Naval game, use it wisely.
If Rome is kicking your ass early, and you get to have 3 or more armies…then and only then consider a deep all out strike at Rome…Id love to try that never had the dice to raise a huge army and still be able to keep Sicily tied down.

Rome has to look to stay in the game long term. They must grab Messina early. and hold it. But not with 80 pts locked up. :). Which is why most of the game seems to swirl around Messana. Its critical to both sides. But if one side loses it, play the long game.

Rome should be preparing to build its navies, protect and extend control of border areas AND punching Carthage in the nose at any cost wherever it can. Even if you lose a battle both sides end up at least disrupted after it. Rome has to build a quality army, train it at home and then seek permission or put the PRoConsul in charge to go re take Sicily.
Ive written both narrative and game play posts on my blog - www.bigboardgaming.com . Search under Carthage…no gte its all 100% accurate play, but I learned with a guy who had played several times. And we both followed the BGG folks who posted game play.
Its a fantastic system. Maybe you would be better trying Rise of Roman Republic first - smaller # of units, smaller scenarios then come and tackle this one. BOTH are relatively accurate, historical, fun and choice laden games. Enjoy.
VC’s

[Juan_Raigada]

Yeah, that’s all cool, and the naval auto victory is an obvious early Carthage strategy, but you haven’t explained yet how Carthage can get an auto victory if Messana doesn’t fall (and then Syracuse flips by default). Well, it can’t by the rules. You need Messana and Syracuse for an auto victory (or Rome, haha).

Chances of Messana falling to Carthage are probably a little below 50% given good Roman play (get the two consular armies together and do a single attack, which has pretty good chances of winning). If Messana doesn’t fall and Syracuse flips auto Victory is automatically out.

What’s Carthage long game? Something that is not a passive defense?

(btw, I don’t mind Carthage not having a long game -historically, it really didn’t- and I like the manpower game, but I do think using a system focused on land battles and movement -the naval system is an expansion made had hoc for the first punic war- for a conflict than in reality saw 5 big land battles over 24 years might not be the best way to show its strengths. And, mind you, I am loving the system, all the historicity and narrative of it, and have just bought RRR and eagerly await the second punic war game (if it ever comes to fruition). But it is clear this specific conflict is not the best suited for it)

[Navaronegun]

Aulus Atilius Calatinus is livid. The Senate has authorized one (??!!) Legion this year, after Caudex’s disaster last year. Realizing the Senate is is placing politics over the State, and that fact will not change, Calatinus determines to leave Rome and take charge of the I Consular Army personally and lead it to Massena without Senate permission. He does so.

A Pox on the Senate, Calatinus will take Fortuna by the hand and guide her to victory.

He arrives at Rheggium, meets the Army there and crosses the Straits; attempting to attack Hanno’s Army from Massena but issues with the caiques and small boats used for the crossing by the Army along with persistent fog prevent his attack. Fortuna laughs at Calatinus, pulling back as he tries to hold her hand.

Calatinus fails a continuation roll on a 1.

The Senate, goaded by Calatinus’ enemies (Caudex’s supporters, now called the “Sicily Faction”) hold a vote to censure Calatinus for his abandonment of Rome, and leaving Italy without Permission. The vote fails, handily.

A 1 is rolled, +1 to a net “2”. Still under 6, Calatinus’ Campaign rating..

Fortune now comes forward and caresses Calatinus’ face…

Calatinus’ allies in the Senate, the “Sardinia Faction” win the day.

Activation Ended

It is very busy in Massena.

Next Up: Chicken Guts

[Navaronegun]

The auspices are poor for Carthago.

An 85 on a d100 is rolled.

82-86 Sardinian Revolt: The Sardinians decide this is as good a time as any
to raise a ruckus. The player who controls Sardinia removes 10 SP of Infantry
and 1 SP of Cavalry from his forces in play (but not under Siege and subject
to any nationality restrictions) and places them in Caralis [It-4332], where they
must remain until this event is rolled again. If such forces are not available,
the player must draw from any troops raised until he has enough or the event
is rolled again.

All Carthage’s garrison troops in the Mediterranean, with few exceptions are now here in Sardinia. Carthage is vulnerable…if Rome had a Fleet.

Now we know why Calatinus was so anxious…payments made to Roman Merchants and through them to local leaders in Sardinia were coming to fruition. Wily Calatinus needed to act, and soon!

The Auguries have spoken.

Next up:

Calatinus Activates again!