Ugh. Yeah, I hate that. The problem is at some point the resources WILL free up to have more and more high tier units, which are now godlike as they are balanced around just having one or maybe two of, or worse they are boring and not very exciting.
I’m not a fan of lateral upgrades - as a game like this progresses, I like to feel like I’m unlocking new and more interesting and more powerful tools for my toolbox. I don’t want to keep returning to my well-worn hammer since it will always get the job done.
I’m not following this - if I play a game of AoW3 or PF I don’t have empty slots in my army just waiting for more powerful units to fill those slots. Your army should evolve over the course of a campaign.
One key to all of this talk is the AI - if the AI is only using low tier units in the end game and you have high end power house troops, that’s where boring comes in. The units should be exciting and also well matched by your enemies - if you have incredible Dragons and Behemoth units in your army, they should be necessary at that point when the AI is fielding Demons and Angels or whatever.
This is a good approach - let high level units be very powerful but then keep around some of the low tier units as their support and syngery is still useful. But it should also be a choice - sometimes low teir units are NOT going to be the answer. A low teir Priest unit with a powerful buff and a solid heal could always feel useful even in the late game, but a low tier Swordsman should be outclassed by newer, more expensive units that are better equipped and better trained.
This did give me an idea - it would be neat if the system of non-Hero units leveling up provided some sort of cosmetic upgrade, like a starting unit of Swordsman as it levels up gets noticeably better and more magical armor and weapons, so by the max unit level they have like runes inscribed on their armor and their swords are glowing or something.
KevinC
3610
It’s not a matter of obligation, it’s making sure that units in the game serve a purpose. You already found such a use in your Warhammer example: garrisoning cities. Cheaper units serve a use in that game because you can’t afford to garrison everything with. I think Warhammer would be pretty boring if the concept of infantry was obsolete past the early game and instead battles were fought with nothing but dragons and Cathay balloons. That’s the kind of space that previous Age of Wonders game occupied, IMO, where in the end you were really just building stacks of your best 1-2 units and nothing else.
The idea for me is to make sure that units provide useful utility. Maybe that utility is garrisoning cities, maybe it’s the ability to detect hidden units, maybe it’s the ability for small units to use cover, or maybe it’s unique things like infantry being able to carry medpacks or repair kits that still make them useful. Stuff like that.
I feel like I’m being mis-understood a little, so let me clarify - I don’t want to not have a reason to use older/early game units, like I have said I think it’s fine for garrisons, extra armies defending critical resource nodes maybe, that sort of thing - I just don’t want them to still be a backbone unit in the late game. If it’s a good idea to have one or two early units in the army (I’ve had examples of this in very recent posts), all the better, but don’t give me a lateral upgrade from Swordsman into some mid-tier unit that is not really better just different, that’s not what I’m looking for in a game like this.
Sharpe
3612
Why are we skipping the solution already implemented, in my mind with massive success, in AoW: Planetfall?
Why do we need to reinvent the wheel? The mod system addresses this issue in a very major way, and although we are talking about adjusting it (I think mod slots for most units should be reduced from 3 to 2, and also the powerful “spell ability” mods should be further limited to “spellcaster” units), it’s still a very elegant solution to the unit obsolescence issue.
BBB, I forget, did you skip Planetfall? Or just not like it?
It is essential to this discussion IMO. The design evolution of Planetfall from AoW 3 is quite significant.
Sharpe
3613
Yeah I disagree MASSIVELY. The wrong direction for the series full stop. Too much micromanagement, I don’t want city buildings cluttering an already cluttered map, and also you reference a problem (Infinite City Spam) already solved by Planetfall.
Also, this idea of unlimited stack sizes, etc. The stack limit is fundamental to AoW. It sounds to me that you want a different 4X, not an AoW game.
In fact, I think most of BBB’s suggestions boil down to “make AoW less AoW and more like a different 4X”. I am not on board with that.
I think the suggestions of the Explorminate Article, along with some of the suggested tweaks and focus areas we have discussed, are the way to go.
Expand and enhance Empire mode. Add Seals Victory back in. Keep the mod system but streamline and refine it. Those are the ideas Triumph should be looking at, not reinventing the game to be Age of Endlessness.
KevinC
3614
BBB is a big AoW stan so I don’t think it’s that.
I like the mod system as well but there have been a lot of complaints about it, here on Qt3 and elsewhere. I agree with you that I’d like to see the system stay and just be tweaked in the way you described.
Wildly, I had the same thought at a few points while reading @BloodyBattleBrain theorycrafting - I don’t think it was his intention, but I can see where @Sharpe is coming from here.
Sharpe
3616
I feel in hindsight my tone was a bit hostile to @BloodyBattleBrain. I disagree with the direction of changes he is proposing but I do appreciate his efforts to engage meaningfully in a discussion to improve the franchise.
I do feel like the evolution of design in Planetfall is the right general way to go (sectors, mods, etc.) but I think there is a lot of room to discuss how to refine that evolution as well as further evolve the core design.
There is one thing we haven’t talked about yet which is the exploration sites. I LOVE clearing out the exploration sites but it is true that with a hard 6 unit limit on what you can take into the sites, the sites in specific strongly incentivize stacks of tier 2, tier 3 and sometimes tier 4 units. Taking tier 1 units into exploration sites is a recipe for attrition. I wouldn’t mind a broader range of exploration sites, with some suitable for clearing by weaker stacks. Or if the sites are kept high level, there should probably be fewer of them.
We don’t.
I was taking it as a given that existing solutions would be among the proposed ideas.
Recall that this is really a fun(ish) brainstorm, discussion, with (mostly me) meandering thoughts, as opposed to a design document :)
Another way to approach this could be
What mechanic do I like?
Why? What problem does it solve?
How else could I solve it?
My recollection is that you were its single most vocal advocate on this forum, in fact.
I don’t think it was really solved there, and it was certainly inelegant.
I hated that I started with a coloniser and that there were no pre existing cities on the map, absolutely hated this.
And just making every new coloniser cost x cosmite was to me a bit clumsy, inelegant.
Earlier, maybe? Or possibly just in different places? I recall BBB’s posts being the ones that talked me into buying it even sooner than I’d planned.
Well, if you chart the evolution of the game series, this is EXACTLY what had been happening.
The people in charge seemingly took umbrage of AoW being classified as “not a real 4x.”
AoW2 introduced settlers, whereas AoW1 had fixed cities. Massive difference in gameplay.
PF made you start with a coloniser and had no pre-existing cities…
Etc etc.
Sharpe
3624
In Planetfall, you start with a size 3 city. Was that a change from the first release?
IIRC, I guess I came to Planetfall a few months after release. What was the big update that improved the sector system? Tyrannosaurus? About 4-5 months after release? That’s where I came in, IIRC.
I didn’t think it was hostile, fwiw.
And don’t take these as “real” suggestions.
Earlier I mentioned interesting discussion, mission accomplished. :D
It is possible.
I adored the faction design there.
I got my wires crossed.
You do indeed start with a city.
My bad.
I have never liked settler units in any game and I think that coloured my recollections lol.
I don’t think anyone will argue this.
