All BF1942, all the time!

Maybe it’s because of the atrocities and violations of the rules of war that were widely reported on both sides? Maybe it’s because, unlike any other recent war, it featured an enormous number of American draftees killed or wounded in action? Maybe it’s because it’s the only recent–probably only ever–war widely despised by the American public?

Are you seriously going to sit there and pretend that Vietnam is only distinct from other American wars in that we didn’t win? I realize you live in Australia, so maybe you don’t know, but Vietnam has been a difficult wound on the American psyche. Not because we lost (although that’s probably part of it), but because A) many, if not most, Americans didn’t want us to be fighting the war at all; and B) it was a brutal, lawless war whose effects were brought into American living rooms as no war before had been. Never before or since have Americans been so cognizant of the terrible carnage suffered by American forces in wartime.

Of course there were atrocities in other wars, but this was the first one where it was openly discussed and brought home. Other wars did not include stories of booby-trapped casualties, children as combatants, people being burned alive by the scores, etc. etc. Maybe that stuff happened; I honestly don’t know. But if it did, it wasn’t reported and understood the way it was for Vietnam.

Yeah, but as we’ve discussed before, those games are more like “history.” Most Vietnam veterans are still alive and many of them are young enough that they might be playing computer games; certainly, many of us have parents who are Vietnam veterans. Vietnam seems even less like “history” than maybe it should because the country spent so much time before really confronting and absorbing what happened.

Of course there were atrocities in other wars, but this was the first one where it was openly discussed and brought home. Other wars did not include stories of booby-trapped casualties, children as combatants, people being burned alive by the scores, etc. etc. Maybe that stuff happened; I honestly don’t know. But if it did, it wasn’t reported and understood the way it was for Vietnam.

Duh. All wars are fucked up kill-a-thons. It’s only now in the media age that everybody has a chance to see war up close in all its visceral splendor-- and recoil in horror, naturally.

I dunno. Maybe all wars are as brutal as Vietnam was. Maybe not. I didn’t see any reports from, say, Gulf War I or II about child combatants, wholesale slaughters of probably innocent villagers, etc.

Even if I were to assume you’re right and all wars are as brutal as Vietnam, though, I don’t see how that advances the ball–Vietnam is still difficult for America because Vietnam was the first time Americans were confronted with what modern warfare was really like (plus all the other stuff–draftees killed, despised by public, etc.). Sean’s implication that Americans are sensitive about Vietnam because they’re crybabies who can’t deal with “losing” is still way off base.

Well WWI and WWII were a bit of a mess too and I don’t see too many people criticising games like MOH:AA etc.[/quote]

While my WWI knowledge is poor (read: I learned about it last semester and have since forgotten everything), and WWI isn’t relevant to MOHAA anyway, I know that WWII isn’t stigmatized like Vietnam in computer games mostly because, as has been previously mentioned in this thread, it was all black and white. There was Good, there was Evil, there were great losses and long battles, and, in the end, good prevailed. It’s all very epic…kinda lends itself well to epic movies and computer games. Vietnam is very gray. The sides were blurred, and evil was perpetrated on both ends. It’s still that way, at least to some extent.

“I am not afraid, and am always ready to do my duty, but I would like some one to tell me what we are fighting for.”–Arthur H. Vickers, Sergeant in the First Nebraska Regiment

“Talk about war being ‘hell,’ this war beats the hottest estimate ever made of that locality. Caloocan was supposed to contain seventeen thousand inhabitants. The Twentieth Kansas swept through it, and now Caloocan contains not one living native. Of the buildings, the battered walls of the great church and dismal prison alone remain. The village of Maypaja, where our first fight occurred on the night of the fourth, had five thousand people on that day, – now not one stone remains upon top of another. You can only faintly imagine this terrible scene of desolation. War is worse than hell.”–Captain Elliott, of the Kansas Regiment

Letters from Vietnam in the ‘60s? Nope. Letters from Americans fighting in the Philippine-American War (1899-1902), the US’ first real war as a colonial power. Info on it is strikingly spare, even on the web, as it’s one of the true forgotten wars. At the very least, Korea will be remembered because of MAS*H, but some of the extremely questionable military exploits of the United States around the turn of the 19th/20th century are all but undocumented.

History repeats itself, of course, and many of the stories left from the P-A War could easily be transplanted into Vietnam with little alteration. It was a motiveless and losing war with no real rationale behind it other than paranoia and imperialism, and one that US forces were ill-equipped to win due to the difficult Southeast Asian jungle terrain. Atrocities were rampant on both sides.

Of course, this is to say nothing of the wars that predate the existence of the United States. Wartime cruelty is redundant and as old as humanity. The only thing new about Vietnam was the fact that the world watched it happen on television.

~MJK

So developers should wait another 20-40 years before writing any games based on Vietnam because it was a “sensitive” war ?

That’s a fun argument style! Let me try: So I should like BFV because otherwise the developers’ creativity will be stunted?

But to answer your question, and I’ll speak only for myself here (although I think lots of Americans would probably feel roughly the same way): yeah, in 20 years I (or my kids) could probably enjoy a slapstick Vietnam game. But today, I can’t. If the folks at EA want to make a game of questionable taste whose sales will probably be hurt by its subject matter, that’s their prerogative. It’s certainly been done before (Blackhawk Down, Postal 2, etc.). But I’m not going to buy it.

I guess you’re proceeding on the theory that what is tasteful doesn’t change; if a WW2 game that has you playing the Germans is okay now, it should have been just as okay in 1942. I don’t agree with you, but there you go.

Black Hawk Down had questionable subject matter that hurt it’s sales? It sold pretty well IIRC, and it wasn’t that controversial. Plus it was a realistic game, not “slap-stick”. Not even in the same ballpark as the intentionally controversial Postal 2. Really odd example. There were a couple of asides about the racial makeup and AI of the badguys, but I don’t remember any real controversy about it.

Any World War I FPS would have to be set somewhere other than the Western front. Nobody knows anything about the non-Western front areas of the war, so no interest from the public. No chance.

A Korean War FPS would be just like a World War II FPS, but without the epic overtones of WW2 and the added bonus that you run the risk of being accused of racism because of the entirely-minority enemy.

WW2 is a good setting because of it’s epic status and the fact that everybody knows a lot about it. Oh, and it’s weapons were good enough than an FPS can work. You can’t make a FPS about the Civil War, you get like 3 shots a minute with your rifle, and you fire in a line with 150 other guys. Maybe as a cavalry officer with a repeating rifle and revolver, Outlaws style.

I do. Mark Bowden (the guy who wrote the book) refused to have anything to do with it, and if I remember right many of the people involved in the conflict spoke out against it (although one acted as a technical consultant, on the condition that a percentage of the sales would go to veterans’ families or something similar). I also recall reading one or two critical (or at least questioning) articles in magazines. I don’t know about the sales, though, you may be right.

Having played the game, it’s definitely not at all realistic. It’s not as “slapstick” as BF1942, where you can parachute out of a fighter into a tank, or swipe an enemy plane off the carrier deck, but it’s no Operation Flashpoint. Very arcadey, at least in my opinion. Anyway, I don’t want to get on a massive tangent about BHD; if you think it’s a poor example, just ignore it.

I don’t consider BF1942 or the upcoming BF:Vietnam or even Desert Combat “slapstick”. I am sure the designers didn’t have “slapstick” in mind when they were making BF1942.

On the BF1942 server I play on it is treated seriously. That is the tactics of warfare and teamplay. Granted there is more chance of meeting immature idiots on a BF1942 server than say an IL2 server but still there are serious players out there.

But then as everyone keeps saying here I guess “Vietnam” is a special case. :?:

Excited about a drivable forklift? Do you like playing with kittens? Do you like looking for sailors? Have I got a game for you![/quote]

That’s the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time. :)

The embarassing part is that I loved Shenmue.

Forklifts spin out very easily.

Well, this is now free on Origin. Downloading now, but is anyone playing?

I, too, would like to know the answer to this question. I’m tempted to install Origin to try this again, but am afraid it will either be a ghost town or home only to the most hardcore of BF2 masters.

I briefly fired it up when it finished downloading, and there were about 2000 people around on various servers. If this LP (Battlefield 1942) is anything to go by, the hardcore masters went away a long time ago.

I still have my original discs, which I hope means I can bypass the Origin nonsense. Well, okay, so I have an Origin account, and if it came down to it, I could probably tolerate using it, if there were people I wanted to play with.

Tried but after B3 I just cant enjoy it

It looks like either the offer has been withdrawn or is limited to the US. There’s no sign of it on the UK version of their website. I can wait - I didn’t play BF1942 until a couple of years ago.