3121

I think by “not enough time” people mean “not enough time to re-play the same class on Normal difficulty over and over until I find the build that works for me”. Or maybe it’s not about “works for me” but rather “that new idea I had yesterday”.

If I see that my Barbarian build is not working in Hell, I don’t want to re-start a new Barbarian on Normal. If I am restarting on Normal, I would rather try a Monk, for example. Getting different classes through the game and experimenting with builds can still provide months and years of entertainment.

Some people like to repeat stuff, some don’t, I guess that’s the diffirence.

3122

For those complaining about cookie cutter builds. Having unlimited free respecs will only make that worse. Instead of “You need build X or Y to be viable endgame with class Z” it becomes “You need build K or L to beat random special monster M” in addition to that.

Now as long as Blizzard doesn’t start to actively shape boss encounters around the free respecs this won’t matter. But if they do decide to do so? It will become a puzzle game where you keep bumping your head against boss x until you figure out what the correct combination of skills is. Kinda like certain WoW raid encounters only replacing “Do not stand in fire” with “Pick poison damage skills”.

Anyway, there is always the chance they will revise the entire system again in the coming months so no real reason to get up in arms about it.

3123

The reason they do it in WoW raids is because there are a bunch of people in a raid and thus a lot of “skills” are available.

I seriously doubt they will start designing Diablo bosses like that.

3124

I wasn’t equating skills directly. I was equating “Do this specific thing X to beat boss Y”

3125

I know.

For example, in WoW they can design a boss requiring a Hunter to use some ability that is required to kill the boss. They can do it because it’s reasonable to require a raid to have a hunter.

Diablo is not a raid encounter. It is not reasonable to require, say, poison damage as the only means to kill a boss. A boss needs to be killable by a wide range of classes and builds.

Of course, you can always exxagerate everything and ask “But what if they do that?!!” but that exxageration will be the only support for your idea that somehow people will be required to respec to a very specific build for every boss.

3126

I want to take this concept of no decisions, no re rolling, etc a step further. Is having classes acceptable? It’s possible to put in 30 levels only to discover that you don’t enjoy a classes and want to try something else instead. Your recourse is to scrap the character and start again.

Is it acceptable that you have to restart in that scenario, or should you be able to change class at will? Why or why not?

3127

I think part of the concern is that this idea of streamlining the leveling curve and doing away with permanent or semi-permanent customization has been in force for most of Diablo 3’s public life now. The recent change to make Runes even less customizable is just the logical continuation of one of their primary design goals.

I dunno. It’s starting to feel less like an A-RPG and more like a Tyrian where you get your credits back after ever mission. And don’t get me wrong: I enjoy Tyrian. . . but it’s a pure action game. Diablo’s losing anything that could be realistically be considered roleplaying, and given how little there was there to begin with, it’s not like there’s a lot to do away with before it’s gone entirely.

I dunno, maybe I was weird for never min-maxing or worrying about whether I could solo Hell on Hardcore, but I sort of liked my quirky, 1-off characters with very me-esque choices driving their creation. I liked feeling like I could guide them along a path and make my own choices and then live with those choices. The character was mine.

Now, I get the Barbarian that Blizzard wants me to play in the order they want me to play him. Sure, I’ll get some loot drops, but realistically, a lot of them aren’t going to affect the combat except insofar as how hard the abilities I’m allowed to use hit. If I want to guide my character to compensate for my loot drops, that’s not an option: I’ve just go to sign onto the market and go buy whatever it is I need.

And me and others like me are and have been up in arms because, as I said, none of this is a surprise. It follows what they’ve done and said already. They’re creating an extremely streamlined, cohesive vision. . . that looks less and less like a Diablo game. It might be a good thing in general, but it just doesn’t fit the pattern, so to speak.

So, if you want a purely online, doled out experience geared toward making you buy and sell loot to obtain the illusion of control over your character, and if you want to be “rewarded” with a streaming banner of colorful icons for giving up the ability to hack the game and fuck around with it however you like on your own computer, and if you want to accept that having Facebook integrated into it is more useful than LAN, then great. Enjoy it, please.

Me? I’m going to be pining for what could have been.

3128

Yes it’s acceptable.

The argument is that the impact of your select of each talent is insufficiently communicated when you select them. However, the choice of how your class impacts your playstyle is well communicated when you select your class. Each class plays significantly differently, to the extent that it’s almost a different game when you play as each different class.

3129

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the last few pages. At what point do people think their convenience is more important than having to make an actual decisions in a game?

I’ll admit, I don’t get it. I think having to choose between A or B with no way to change is an important part of gaming. Having to actually commit to something makes it that much more important that just willy nilly picking and swapping things any time you please.

Do the people who “don’t have the time anymore”, which is like most played out excuse for not wanting to commit to anything in a game, have a problem with being able to switch classes at will? After all having to commit to a class is punishing as well.

3130

That’s my point. If you can respec into any build why should one bother to make a boss killable by a wide range of builds?

It’s not that I’m particularly worried about bad boss design happening, but in D2 they already sort of did this with the dmg school immunity (sub)bosses on higher difficulties. And there were no respecs there leading to the well known, “Fire immune monsters you couldn’t possibly kill with your Fire Sorceress” death trap requiring you to re-roll.

Then again, damage immunity is a poor mechanic anyway in most cases (Alpha Protocol Russian boss anyone?).

3131

Commitment is boring. Lol, I hope my wife doesn’t see this post. :)

It’s all personal. Some people like to “live with consequences”. Others like to stir things up and try new things.

Rift was a great example - you could change your role (within the class though) from a healer, to a tank, to a nuker and you didn’t have to spend 30 hours per role to see how it plays. Not even talking about the fine tuning within the role.

Switching classes at will is probably a bit too far though, just from the point of replayability.

I like to view classes as “themes”. So I choose a theme, let’s say, Necro and that’s what kind of stuff this char will be doing. I want to be able to switch him from raising his undead minions to, for example, exploding corpses and cursing enemies. But I wouldn’t want him to switch into, I don’t know, a Paladin as it’s a completely different theme.

3132

I think the hardcore Diablo 2 players like to repeat stuff. These are the people who are still playing. So the latest changes seem like a bit of a slap in the face for them. Since they are the minority, it’s probably a good business decision by Blizzard. But in the long run D3 probably won’t retain the numbers that D2 has. Which also doesn’t matter to Blizzard since they care about initial sales.

3133

There definitely has to be a balance where respeccing isn’t a chore, yet you are committed to something character-wise. I assume their plan was to have the items take care of the commitment level - your build is dependent on your items complementing it, and changing all those items to equally powerful ones that complement a different build takes time, thus you aren’t really all things at all times.

However, I’d still like to see them give you some things to commit to as you level. Not permanently, but in some fashion. Either give you points to spend on unlocking skills in whatever order you want, or points to put into attributes that you can adjust for a fee, or whatever.

3134

I think “because it’s a video game” works in response to this.

3135

Sure, why not? Though you seem to be going for a reductio ad absurdum, there’s nothing absurd about this, see Final Fantasy style jobs system.

Though the class decision is way simpler and far more intuitive, you have a fairly good idea of what an RPG class is supposed to do, and you’ll quickly find out if you like it or hate it. So let’s start by allowing for respecs. The decision between two distributions of skill points is often unintuitive and completely unclear.

I’ll admit, I don’t get it. I think having to choose between A or B with no way to change is an important part of gaming. Having to actually commit to something makes it that much more important that just willy nilly picking and swapping things any time you please.

Having to commit to a build without any information to make that choice (hands-on experience is by far the best) is stupid. The game should not require me to commit to improving my Exploding Frogs vs my Zombie Dogs when I have no idea how I’m going to enjoy either one, or how either one interacts with the monsters coming up, etc. You end up with a Necromancer with 6 points in Curse of Vision and realize 3 weeks later that your character sucks it up. One of the reasons I stopped playing Torchlight is exactly this, my character didn’t suck, but I had dumped several points in a useless skill, and the potion of respec mod made my game crash.

Or, players end up cribbing builds online because they don’t want to suck it up. Lack of respecs can encourage conformity.

3136

Not at all. I’m not trying to make a point, I’m genuinely interested in the discussion, especially from those with a different viewpoint than my own.

3137

I think restarting to play a different class is more fun than restarting to play a different build of the same class. Mostly because there is less overlap in the experience, so things are more fresh and entertaining.

I still might be tempted to allow people to start a new character at Nightmare level if Normal is so easy that it’s boring the second time around. That’s just a consequence of how Diablo games handle difficulty though (and hopefully there are still other ways to adjust difficulty).

On the other hand, if the build system is so fresh and interesting that it can provide a diverse and challenging play experience leveling up the second time around with the same class, then starting over again is less painful. I still think I’d prefer to try out my ideas at a faster pace, however.

3138

How could a new character play in Nightmare? It’s not like the game is slightly harder in Nightmare, it’s the next step from defeating Diablo or whoever the final boss will be in Act IV - it’s in effect Act V only in the same location Act I took place, etc.

3139

Presumably that person meant that you’d start out at Level X with Y gold.

3140

How so? Because you can add a lot of really absurd features to games based on that premise.

So you think any game that makes you commit to anything should allow you to change those choices at will? I’m just wondering if this is a Diablo thing or if this is some problem you have with game design in general. Because many, many games have you make a choice with as little information as what you get in Diablo and I think adding respecs to those games would lessen them considerably.

As for lack of respecs encouraging conformity, I don’t know that that is the case. Look at Rift, one of the most customizable games around as far as being able to play different roles and respec. Cookie cutter builds are a staple of that game. People conform not because they are forced to due to mechanics like no respecs, they conform because they want to play the most optimal role.

I have no doubt that within a few months Diablo 3 will be no different than Diablo 2 in regards to conformity. The bigger question is how will unlimited respecs effect the games longevity?