3461

I got in.

I’m not liking the streamlined skill system, as predicted, but it’s too soon to speak about its impact long-term. In a way, it’s just a streamlined respec system - and respec is (unfortunately) something that’s here to stay.

Personally, I never liked the concept of respecs in any game (note that I come from a PnP background all the way back to the original D&D - though I’m sure I’m not alone in that) - but I concede that in MMOs that demand such a ridiculous amount of grinding, it’s probably a necessary evil.

But in a game like D3, which is of a much smaller scope - I find it ruins the strategic layer and the fun of returning to the game after a while, to try a new approach to any given character. I mean, in D3 - there will never, ever, be a reason to replay the game with the same class (non-hardcore). Yes, I can switch around skills when I come back - but it seems to me the “fun” of experimentation will not last for the long-term, as you get access to everything so easily. That could be psychologically wrong - but that’s my fear at present.

Maybe I’m weird, in that I love to explore various builds and replaying with the same class (often months or years down the line). To me, it’s entertainment - not a grind.

With that complaint out of the way, I really like what I’m seeing. It’s incredibly polished - but that’s no surprise. It looks and sounds VERY good - and it has plenty of that hack/slash action we all know and love.

The crafting system looks to be an alternate way to achieve the same thing as the old gambling system did. It’s a cheaper way to have a better chance at getting some nice loot but still a money sink. But I would have preferred more customization.

Class abilities look great and feel great. Seems to be a really nice balance of loot drops so far. Nice atmosphere and quality voice-acting - if a bit over-the-top at times.

Overall, I’m definitely going to buy this upon release. But it will be a hard copy at a local retailer. I’m not going to give Blizzard 60 euros. Not because the game isn’t worth it, but because it’s completely unnecessary of them to milk their audience in this way. This is one game that would generate endless millions - almost regardless of pricing. It’s tasteless to set it that high.

3462

I wonder if all this respecing argument could just be solved with a “hardcore” achievement for finishing all 3 difficulty levels without respeccing, and some kind of “honor” badge attached to the portraits of non-respecced characters.

I want respeccing in the game, but I don’t mind the hardcore players getting a special achievement badge for doing it old school.

Tony

3463

That would severely limit the sorts of builds you could do, since you don’t have access to all skills at the start. A wizard would be stuck with Magic Missile, Ray of Frost and Frost Nova as the first three, for instance.

3464

It wouldn’t help me in any way whatsoever.

I just want a reason to replay the game with the same class when returning to the game after a long break (just like I made dozens of characters using Barb/Pally in D2), and I want the motivation to plan strategically - and then see if the plan works as I play through the game. I find great entertainment in that. As I said, I worry that when I’m done with a class in D3 - I’ll never go back and play the game again with that class from the beginning. Because there won’t be a reason.

I’m not a “hardcore” player in the sense that I want to punish myself for kicks. I’m an enthusiast gamer - and I’ve developed a very specific idea of the kind of features that appeal to me over the last three decades. I greatly enjoy enjoy building an “identity” for my character - so I can roleplay him (yes, even in Diablo - I do this). When all characters have access to all skills at all times - it’s kinda hard to stand out and be an individual. Incidentally, this is one of my primary complaints about WoW - in that every person is basically the same without any kind of “history” or role to him/her. Achievements don’t compensate, no.

That’s why I brought up my PnP background, because it was unthinkable to say to the DM that I wanted to “respec” my character at any given point - because I no longer wanted to be who I’d been all along. I like to “play” a role - and that role has both a personality and a set of abilities that define his behavior and psychology.

That said, I concede that their way of handling skill customisation in D3 is new - and I can’t accurately predict if the flexibility and rather generous amount of combinations will eventually outweigh the negatives of NOT having to plan and execute a strategy with caution and understanding of mechanics.

In any case, the game seems rather fantastic in most other ways for this ARPG fan, so I’ll be playing it all the same.

3465

Interesting idea, terrible name.

And we respec in PnP games. If a character’s not working like the player’s vision for the character, I see no reason not to let them change things around. We completely switched a character’s class once because it turns out the player made a poor choice and the result wasn’t reflecting the character they wanted to play.

3466

Sounds like a great mechanism. I’m very interested in how the whole inferno level will play out.

3467

It’s interesting that they’ve included exiting the game as a break condition for the buff. It makes it kind of a meta-game consideration.

It’s a really interesting approach to the problem though, and in keeping with Blizzard’s modern design philosophy, and modern design philosophy in general, that being rewarding certain behaviors rather than explicitly restricting them or punishing other behaviors.

3468

It sounds interesting enough, but really, this is re-inventing the wheel over and over and over. They’re coming up with a million ways to encourage something that would never have been necessary if they’d kept the skill tree format. There’s absolutely NO reason NOT to have the skill tree format - while keeping the wonderful skills and skill combinations. Except, of course, that you don’t want to bother the player with having to plan ahead - and “enforcing” the awful experience of replaying parts of a very entertaining game.

It’s a modern obsession with not inconveniencing the player that they’re flat out not secure enough about to go fully through with it. They’ve done the same thing in WoW - where they’re only now realising the impact of streamlining content to be instant delivery without any kind of “hassle” involving investing in overcoming challenges.

Some people may think they’re witnessing brilliant design in the making, but I’m seeing people who’ve forgotten the basics in an effort to appeal to everyone on the planet.

That said, they still have some of THE best craftsmen in the business. Their art/sound/etc. work is impeccable.

However, if this works better than the established way - despite my reservations - I’ll have to eat my hat and shut up for a bit ;)

3469

My guess is that the reason they ditched skill trees is more about the difficulty of balancing such huge, complex trees, rather than preventing user inconvenience. Having every skill be in one big pool means that the skills don’t compete with each other as much and that you don’t have to worry about how skills upgrade. It makes the balancing problem much simpler. I think the same applies to the real reason they stripped away attribute investments: it’s much easier to predict the range of attributes each class can have at each level this way.

3470

Oh, it’s definitely true that forcing hard choices on the player means a lot more work in terms of balancing everything.

There’s no denying that - but this system doesn’t make the skills themselves balanced. It just means people won’t bitch when they can’t try out cookie-cutter build X without planning for it and replaying.

However, they’ll still be bitching because they can’t play their character well enough to defeat those willing to invest (with identical builds) - so the overall bitching won’t lessen - it will just be about something else. Defeat as in outperform other players in PvE or kill them in PvP.

Essentially, doing “well” in any relatively complex endeavor requires a personal investment. Researching and planning for a good build with appropriate gear - requires an investment. If you skip this requirement, and make the build itself easily attainable - you’re kidding yourself if you think players will feel “satisfied” they’re on an even playing field when comparing themselves to players who invest in the ability to PLAY the build.

3471

You wrote the reason. Skill trees without easy respecs suck for people without infinite time.

3472

Thankfully, game developers have grown past the myopia of assuming that every player has both infinite time and the desire to do a few hours of research before investing their skill and stat points.

The fact that you have not doesn’t change the fact that skill trees are a strictly worse solution.

3473

It has nothing to do with having infinite free time. That is such a silly argument, who has that much time these days? It has everything to do with preferring the design decision in a game like Diablo 2. I have pretty limited time to devote to a single game but I prefer the system where I can create a build that will be somewhat unique that someone else can’t just copy in a matter of seconds.

3474

3475

So, I must have “infinite” time available to play games because I enjoy playing the game more than once - specifically for the strategic aspect of coming up with a build and seeing it (hopefully) come to fruition?

It’s funny, because I’ve seen people claim that they “don’t have time to plan for a build and replay” - but they seem to have the time to play, say, WoW for years of their life - for several hours each day (or at least each week).

Is time truly the factor? I doubt it.

I think most of us here are willing to dedicate what time we have available to something we enjoy, and I’m no different.

I can appreciate that a lot of people don’t enjoy investing in succeeding in a computer game - but that’s different.

In any case, stating that skill trees are a strictly worse solution - doesn’t quite constitute proof of that statement.

It’s a matter of opinion, obviously.

3476

Or for rolling a character and then finding out that no, that skill sucks, this character sucks, and you spent a whole chunk of time leveling up that character through Normal and Nightmare only to find out that he’s totally, completely worthless in Hell difficulty?

That doesn’t sound like fun even in a game where the basic gameplay is entertaining.

3477

That’s cute.

However, it’s such a basic psychological drive to want to be “special” in any social activity - that being in denial about it is hardly convincing.

Anyone who enjoys a game like Diablo 3 enough to dedicate days of their life to play it - will want to be unique/good/smart/cool/whatever so they can be “special” in the community. Even if it’s in a tiny way - like having the weirdest looking gear.

Now, whether you want to invest what it takes to achieve that in a computer game (as opposed to the all important real life) - is something that differs from person to person.

But I find it endlessly amusing to encounter people who’re happy to play games for hours and hours each week - and yet claim they don’t care how they perform or how they compare to others. Obviously, that’s just not true.

3478

We already discussed this six or seven times. I dare anyone to make a new argument.

3479

I can think of tons of reasons. After playing D2 for years and then Torchlight, the skill tree format can go fuck itself.

Especially without respecs as you seem to imply. Been circling this topic over and over again in this thread.

3480

It’s a risk - certainly.

But you’d be surprised how minimal it is, if you plan accordingly - by reading up on game mechanics and listen to developers and the community.

For me, the “fun” is to try to find a build that matches my playstyle - but which is also not a copy of some established cookie cutter.

It doesn’t have to be the best or most efficient build - it just needs to be entertaining and workable.

In Diablo 2 - you’d never end up with a “worthless” character if you did your homework. That’s part of the planning.

Again, I can appreciate not wanting to make that investment. But let’s not call it a matter of time. It’s a matter of interest.