Of course you’ll keep inventing evidence rather than deal with the lack of it for your cause.
No, there is NO evidence. It’s equally likely to be self-selection. Or a screening effect of better scrutiny of concealed licence holders. Or any number of other factors - but we DON’T KNOW. And pretending that you do is frankly self-serving in this case.
RichVR
3248
Cite please? Oh wait. Only anecdata. Continue with your bullshit.
I’m not making your posts, of course. You seem to be very confused about that, given you are supporting the claim - with no evidence, even anecdote - that not being argumentative means others won’t be abusive, even physically, towards you.
Moreover, in fact, given Tim made an absolute claim anecdote is a perfectly valid refutation. If it’s a statistical claim, that’s something else entirely of course. But hey, accuracy!
No surprise to me that you need to laugh off someone being attacked with a knife though.
Starlight, can I call timeout and ask why you bother? Are you bored on your computer? Do you just like to argue? Please empathize with us. Before you post, ask yourself if you’re simply being tedious and arguing to draw attention to yourself. I get it, these P&R threads go back and forth. But you’re not even trying. You’re shrieking about a lack of cited evidence (as if no one has ever shrieked about that before, and evidence has not been produced tens of times in this very thread, though not like it makes a difference to either side) and in the same breath trying to get us to make a logical leap that a drawn knife always equals a drawn gun were it available, which always equals attempted murder even if the victim runs away. You follow that up by dismissing evidence before it’s even presented by assuming it’s “self-selection” or a “screening effect.”
I’m begging you to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you bother. Why not make today, January 19th, 2014, the day you decide to stop posting in these slap fights and do something amazing in life? Do you want to lose 10 pounds maybe, or create a new website? Start a thread and let’s do it together. Let’s team up and focus your energy away from something so tedious.
Yes, you can ask why I bother with little things like honesty and accuracy. I’ll empathise with who I want, not people determined to ignore those little minor unimportant things, thanks! (Tip - this is sarcasm. I’ll use it. You do not need to go ballistic. Yes, that is also a play on words, and sarcasm.)
You’re the one shrieking here, because I refuse to accept nonsense uncritically or to run ahead of the evidence - and at me personally, because it’s not been criticised when other people have made the same point about i.e. evidence on guns not existing in America. You made an absolute claim, it’s frankly bullshit and you’ve been called on it. You’ve also, of course, also completely ignored what I recently said about Northern Ireland, which indicates that there may well be cultural issues at play in gun violence.
I haven’t, of course, dismissed evidence - the evidence isn’t there. Your agenda, thus, can nothing to do with evidence and as I see it, it’s everything with your personal bias. You are simply being unpleasant. Then you tell me to shut up, try and silence me because of that. Well, that does indeed reflect on you - and I don’t want you telling me about magical diet plans or nonsense about SEO, which is what I would expect from you, given your record in P&R.
Clean out your house and donate things to the local sharing center? Reconcile with a family member? Join Toastmasters?
Let’s see who can do the most random acts of kindness in one day!
Forget it, Tim… it’s Dawn Falcon.
Yes, you hate me. Get over yourself.
jpinard
3255
My car has an airbag, a seatbelt, and a metal cage around it… my brain and chest do not. If I get into an accident (which I have) I’m likely to survive it. If someone pulls a gun on me because they had a pissy day, I am not. If someone pulls a knife, a baseball bat, or any myriad of other weapons, at least I have a chance to escape, not if they pull a gun.
Because the slums were born out of a racist America that was too slow to adapt to bring them the same opportunities afforded whites. Nowadays, poor have a terrible time since they don’t get the same educational opportunities in their formative years of ages 3-16. Inner city schools don’t have near the budget wealthy suburbs do since most States have an extremely biases educational system that favors keeping money with the rich and denying it to those in need. Add to the mix GUNS, and GUN culture, poor parenting leading to even worse children, and you’ve got violent neighborhoods. As we all know, you tent to mirror the environment you’re raised in. Radical Islamist parents tend to have grown up in radical Islamist households. Wealthy Jewish kids tend to grow up cultured and end up with jobs that lend them wealth.
The way to break the cycle in violent areas is to not add more guns… that’s crazy. You end up with everyone with a twitchy trigger finger. You fix the socioeconomic issues present. But as we all know, Republicans don’t care, Libertarians don’t care, some Democrats don’t care. Many wealthy people would rather barricade themselves into a gated community than give a cent to helping fix the problem… and at its core, the problem is poor education.
Sarkus
3256
That’s true to a degree, but not to the degree you seem to think it is because you have more of a chance of surviving being shot then you might think. Most people likely to pull a gun and shoot you because they are having a bad day are not all that well trained in how to use them. And while a gun is a more lethal weapon then a knife, baseball bat, etc., they also require a level of accuracy that those other weapons do not. Pumped with adrenaline, you could still keep running after being hit in a number of places with a bullet - people actually get shot all the time and do not come close to death. Only about 1/3 of people shot in the US with a gun each year actually die. Yes, its a lot more lethal then those other weapons, but you still have a decent chance if you are running away from the fight. Not to mention that gunshots tend to get more attention (i.e. someone calling the cops) then those other situation might if there is not a direct witness to the attack.
Houngan
3257
To your first point, you don’t have a good chance of surviving a malicious attack by car. You have a great chance of surviving accidents where both parties want to avoid hurting each other, but in a 100 mph combined crash you’re dead, dead, dead. You face the possibility of that hundred of times every single day, most likely, and yet you aren’t scared of those people. Why?
To your second . . . point. Exactly who was suggesting that adding guns was the fix? Nobody. That came out of your head whole-cloth, and might just illustrate how realistic you are about your perceived opponents on the issue. It’s something to consider.
I think that outside of this thread you know me to be a liberal, caring, and thoughtful person. Wrong sometimes, but we all are. Why do you think I’m arguing from incorrect right-wing ignorance in this one thread? Is there a possibility that I have a point here than I’ve done a lot of research about and have thought long and hard about?
jpinard
3258
I wasn’t implying anything at all about you Houngan. Not the in least and I didn’t insult you either. I know exactly where you stand and I have no problem with it. I thought you were implying that arming a lot more people with guns would help the situation in inner city Chicago where the murder rates are terrible which is why I went into my description.
So here’s an anecdote of my personal experience with people roommates I had in college and roommates before I landed back in GR. Every single person who had a CWP were prone to violence, semi-crazy and should not have had been allowed to carry a weapon. 1 was in the chemical engineering program at U of M and was later kicked out because of grades and for beating people up… for fun. But that didn’t stop him from getting a concealed weapons permit. 2 other guys I roomed with in Lansing, I had no idea about their “past-time” until we’d been living together for a month. They both got CWP’s and went out looking for trouble so they could shoot someone. Our garage was broken into one night, a mower and radio was stolen. They then seeded the house to try and lure any criminal back so they could shoot them. Every night when I was playing Command & Conquer in my little bedroom - they were in the living room cleaning their guns talking about different ways they could kill without being held responsible for murder. They scared the crap out of me. They ended up moving to Chicago after they got fired from EDS, so for all I know, they’re part of the problem in that city if they didn’t give up their wild fantasies. But watching two 22 year old guys peeking out the window waiting for some idiot to break in so they could put a bullet in their chest was horrible - and there was nothing I could do about it. I’ve known a few other people personally who had CWP’s and they were all prone to alcohol abuse, violent outbursts and very racist. There is only one person I know near me who should have a permit and that’s my sister - because she’s a County Sheriff. Ironically, with all the hunters in my family and extended family - none of them have handguns.
Now the people I know here on QT3 are the polar opposite of my roommates and acquaintances: super good people, responsible, etc. But I don’t live near any of you, so the closest people I’ve been around personally who carry, are all people who should never be allowed to carry a gun (except my sister). You may say it’s not fair to use my own personal experiences to factor the evolution of my opinion - but the same would apply to you. But I don’t have a problem with you and any other QT3er having carry permits or machine guns.
Just to clear the air, here would be my resolution on guns:
- Every gun must be registered.
- Every gun owner would be required to go through training and testing as vigorous (or lax) as driving.
- Penalties for carrying an unregistered fire-arm would be a minimum 10 years in prison + 50% of all assets. <— I think that is how you get guns off the streets.
- If you’re carrying a gun with filed off numbers or other sabotage to its trace-ability then the above penalty applies.
- Concealed weapons permits would be limited to those that undergo better training and mental evaluations than normal gun owners.
- Accidentally killing a hunter by mistaking him for a deer or other animal (unless the bullet ricocheted wildly) should require mandatory jail time.
- If you shoot someone outside your house, they better be the bad guy. If not, you go to jail. (the message being - too many innocent people are shot.)
- Criminals shot while committing a violent crime cannot sue anyone unless they were hunted down like prey.
- Lead needs to come out of future ammunition unless it’s produced in a way that won’t be leached into the environment. This includes fishing gear, pellet guns, and BB guns.
- Gun ranges need to pass new strict EPA guidelines for lead exposure.
- No guns in bars.
- Weapons left out in the open that can be grabbed by children should have a huge fine and jail time. Too many children are wounded or killed due to leaving weapons out.
- Handguns or automatic weapons should be illegal for kids under the age of 18 to handle without a supervising adult present.
- Random searches for illegal handguns should be OK in highly monitored situations and high crime areas.
So good people get guns, but use them more carefully, yet are protected better when they do in a legitimate way. People will be more careful about where/how they shoot, guns come off streets. Buyback program would need to be instituted for illegal guns, and mass registration would be conducted over a 2 year period to get the program going. Gun registration could be done at the Secretary of State just like your car and would be a single, central database. If this were done federally there would be no mistaking gun laws from one state to another and no one would feel an excuse for not knowing the system after a major publicity campaign.
I know this country would never do it because people don’t work together and it would cost money. But that seems like a fair system doesn’t it?
ShivaX
3259
Good lord that list is horrific.
Random gun searches? Seriously? Yeah fuck the Constitution let’s break down the door of every poor person in the nation on a whim. They live in “high crime” areas so therefore they are ALL CRIMINALS.
Teiman
3260
Here in spain, all schools have the right to the same budget. Schools in poor zones have the same money schools in rich areas. I was shocked when I learned that it don’t work that way in USA. The rich people there are gaming the system.
In spain they game the system too, what they do is to send his childrens to private schools, where they meet each other and create networks of friends with money. But our public schools are all decent.
It sounds like a way to fix some of USA problems would be to adopt the spanish system. So all schools get the same money inside a state. Then work with hollywood, the music industry and tv, and try to convince these people to avoid cultivating the gangsta culture. So a hard problem, and a very hard problem.
jpinard
3261
I didn’t mean in people’s houses. I was thinking of a system that’s not as offending as New York City’s program. What’s wrong with the rest of the list? Bringing gun laws in line with automobile ownership doesn’t seem bad, and I didn’t even suggest ridding the nation of automatic weapons. Why do people freak out so bad about better laws? If we dissuade idiots from having guns, make it easier for law enforcement to trace crimes, make it easier to put more violent people in jail, make people be more responsible for their actions or stupidness - what’s wrong with that?
jpinard
3262
Gangster culture is not the be-all source of crime a lot of people would believe. Meth, alcohol, familial abuse, are the major crime inducers in our area.
Teiman
3263
I think gangsta culture extends to things like “snitches get stitches”. The idea that everyone should untrust police and the law. That you can cheat and lie and break the law, to favour your group,… but if you betray your group, you are the worst person ever. I am sure you can find such culture in places like Wall Street.
Houngan
3264
JP, I’m on my phone this morning so I can’t reply in depth, but I could agree with a lot of that list. I’m also horrified at your roommate experience, here’s hoping they caught a beating in Chicago or grew up somewhere along the line.
jpinard
3265
I do agree with ShivaX that that option #14 could be draconion if abused like it has been in New York City. Maybe if police were stationed with metal detection wands (useless against plastic guns I know) in random spots, and in random stores to scan people unobtrusively it wouldn’t be so bad. It would be something to help push people to do the buy-back program or pushing someone to “go legal”. And having people go legal would be the primary crux of the entire effort… to get those guns classified and simple to trace. There on in, person who gun owns is responsible for said gun (along with shooter), unless it is broken out of a safe. For any who owns guns illegally there would be a 2 year grace period where they can then become fully registered and compliant no matter how many weapons they have and as long as they’re no insane or violent.
What scared me even more about Roommate #1 at U of M, is he was in chemical engineering because he wanted to bring back chemical warfare and be responsible for the deaths of millions on anti-American people and within our own country… the “punkers” as he called them. This was in the late 80’s and there was this big rift between punkrockers vs. heavy metal. He had long curly hair was a heavy metal guitarist. I didn’t understand their hatred cause I liked electronica.
Want to hear something funny? He was a transplanted Hillbilly. I couldn’t understand half the things he said, but his parents moved up to work at Willow Run Airport, so his family and others never bothered to change the way they spoke which was about as terrible as a babbling lunatic ME: “Hey Butch (his real name), Want to go out to eat tonight?” Butch: “Me gots to gets to the Taco Eats fast!!! I KILL whoever might touched my 28 giant bottles of Jack Daniels while I’m gone. We don’t just beat you… we will kill you.” He had a "“Posse’”. I was so afraid of him I stayed as his roommate all semester as I was afraid he’d track me down and punish me for tattling on him.
