3287

They just need to bootstrap themselves to afford a (relative) 50,000$ firearm. Lord knows that we can’t work on a cultural fix.

3288

Culture changes slowly, if at all. You’re also looking at a non-Christian culture which makes matters worse for women. Christianity put women on a pedestal - it’s one of the primary reasons that women’s rights took off in the west even as faith dwindled in importance.

3289

I’m surprised that the “Loud Music” shooting hasn’t gotten mentioned here yet.

For those not familiar, here’s the facts: In Florida (natch’), a CCW holder parks next to a car full of black teens who are blasting music at a convenience store. The man asks that they turn it down. They do, but then turn it back up. The guy goes back and heated words are exchanged. He fires ten shots into the car, killing one of the teens.

What’s disputed was what happened just before the guy started shooting. He claims that the teens threatened him and pulled up what he thought was a shotgun. No weapon was found by the police when they arrived… but that’s weird too: the guy and his fiance (who was in the other car) left the scene and didn’t call the cops. Their first contact with the authorities was when the police arrived to question them the next evening, and they claim that was ample time for the teens to dispose of a shotgun. The fiance says she never saw a gun and that the guy didn’t mention seeing one when they left the scene.

No “Stand Your Ground” here, the guy is claiming pure self-defense. The jury convicted the guy on three counts of attempted murder (the ten bullets were fired in three distinct volleys), and one count of firing into a car (which I guess is a distinct crime?). They are currently hung on the big one: First degree murder.

3290

First Degree? That seems like it would be hard to prove, why would they go for that?

3291

I am not a lawyer, but here’s my theory:

I think it all stems from the fact that he walked away (after the music was briefly reduced) and came back again. If he had walked over, asked them to turn down the noise, got into a shouting match, felt threatened, and then killed the kid, then I think Murder-Two would be the best they could hope for. The fact that he went away for some period of time (seconds? minutes? I dunno) and then came back means that he was knowingly putting himself into a confrontation with persons he knew were hostile to him; that’s your premeditation. All the prosecution then has to do is convince the jury that he was angry enough at being ignored to pull his gun. Thinking about it, I don’t know that you could have charged him with second-degree murder given those circumstances.

From a non-legal standpoint, the prosecution was probably pressured to charge the guy regardless. This is Florida, and the national headlines say that an armed white man gunned down an unarmed black teenager because he doesn’t like rap music. Fair or not, you’ve got to go for the brass ring.

I’m more interested in why the guy didn’t plead guilty for a lesser sentence: say what you want about Florida’s people, their sentencing laws for gun crimes are pretty heavy. Reading about it, there is apparently a 20-year minimum sentence for “firing a gun in the commission of a crime”, which means he’s already going to prison for between sixty and ninety years for the three attempted murder changes unless the judge has him serve the time concurrently (which is apparently unlikely).

3292

They actually hung on first degree or any lesser included charge (e.g., manslaughter) against the dead teenager. So, it wasn’t just a murder one that they had to commit him of or let him off-- the juror could have given him even manslaughter.

Basically, the jury could agree that he attempted to kill the other three, but they couldn’t decide on what happened with respect to the dead teenager. Most likely, there was one juror who felt that the dead teenager made a credible threat triggering self-defense as to himself, but that he wasn’t justified in spraying down the car with bullets. Interestingly, the only evidence to support his defense was his own words. Of course, a defendant doesn’t have to make his own case, but that still amazes me that someone could mount an at least partially successful self defense argument purely on their own testimony. From what I’ve read, there’s a lot of criticism of the prosecutor for not going after his character more (e.g., known racist remarks) when he opened the door to character by testifying.

3293

Oh, well that makes no damned sense to me.

Then again, this is Florida.

3294

There are a couple of interesting things here, like testifying, leaving the scene, etc.

But just like the guy in the movie theater, the key lesson for concealed carry that these particular guys don’t seem to understand is that you have to be much less confrontational. You have to de-escalate. Because if it does reach the point where someone throws popcorn or seems to be wielding what looks like a shotgun, now you have to make a split second decision. Juries only allow active-duty police officers to fuck that up and get away with it. Citizens have to be more careful.

3295

It’s almost like carrying a gun with them gives them a sense of power which they then seek to wield over other humans.

3296

Unless it’s Florida apparently.

3297

I’ll just throw this in: The reason it hasn’t been mentioned is because it’s a clear-cut case of a guy going on a racist homicide dumbshit spree. We’re all in agreement, basically. He did a horrible thing, he is going to jail for it for a long time, and I couldn’t be happier about that.

3298

I guess you’re talking about cops?

3299

People carry or shoot for a number of reasons. That’s certainly one.

3300

I agree this often applies to cops.

3301

I live in Orlando. I have yet to speak to a single person, black, white or Latino, that doesn’t agree with this. This includes gun owners, such as myself.

3302

60 more gun murders per year in Missouri after background checks were eliminated in 2007.

Also, this story illustrates how important it is that honest, trained people absolutely have a gun (but I wish it wasn’t needed). Buying a $500 house in Detroit:

3303

Arizona, 2 people get in fistfight while at the checkout counter at Wal-Mart. Of course, the guy with the gun feels like he’s losing, so he shoots unarmed man point blank and kills him. Now a wonderful young child is without her father because some idiot can’t handle running away from a fight when he’s “losing”.

Oh, did the murderer get arrested? Of course not! He was “standing his ground, but his fight by a bit”. Did Wal-Mart do anything to break up the fight? Of course not, corporate policy says don’t touch a patron even if it may save his life. Where “do the right thing” is lost in a million little ways. :(

3304

I’m surprised at that, assuming that all of the evidence is in that one news story. Because using a gun during a fistfight should be excessive. You are allowed to protect yourself with response in kind. If a guy punches you, you can punch him back. But you can’t pull a gun and shoot him. That is an excessive reply. I’m just guessing here, because I don’t know the law in Arizona. But if he actually pulled a gun and shot somebody that was throwing hands then, he’s wrong.

3305

Seems to be a rash of these incidents. It it a genuine uptick or is it just media on the lookout?

3306

I’m surprised at that, assuming that all of the evidence is in that one news story.
There’s not enough evidence to tell. The witnesses should be able to help.