4047

Well, here’s the thing. Do we agree that people with mental illness should not be able to buy guns?

4048

No, that’s way too general. I would agree with people if they said individuals made dangerous by a mental illness were not able to buy guns. However, there are countless mental illnesses which would not make a person dangerous to themselves or others.

4049

Playing MMOs, for example.

4050

Agreed. If the person is a danger to themselves or others, then they should not have access to a firearm. It’s probably reasonable to extend that to “or is likely to be,” but that’s much harder to define in any consistently meaningful way.

4051

Ok, I guess that’s reasonable. I’m not totally sure what sorts of mental illness would fall into the category of not potentially making them dangerous, but if such illnesses exist I guess that’s cool. I guess something like tourettes?

But also, presumably in such cases the doctor wouldn’t be submitting that person to be banned from having firearms.

4052

Well, I’m convinced then.

4053

Let’s dial back.

First, what percentage of gun deaths are caused by individuals with mental health issues? Also, what is the overall figure?

Second, what conditions did these individuals suffer from?

Third, can we create a diagnostically useful profile for doctors to use in screening these people out?

If the number of mental health related homicides is significant, and there is an identifiable profile for these killers - then we can proceed. Or at least proceed with weighing the gains against the costs.

4054

I believe this is exactly the sort of thing the federal government is forbidden to study.

4055

I could see it on Oprah " You have a mental illness, and you have a mental illness! Look under your chair, you all are getting a mental illness!"

4056

So we stigmatizing those mentally ill as violent crazies now. Good. I knew I was right to avoid homeless people. Mental illness is so broad. If one has social anxiety and is prescribed xanax, we simply deny one of their rights with a single sugnature from a doctor. How about insomniacs who are prescribed a sleeping pill that may cause suicidal thoughts. “Why yes doctor, I sleep much better but I had a passing disturbing thiught.” “Ah… good to know. You’re crazy. Hand in your gun”. Forget being adjudicated mentally ill. Now you don’t even have to bother first breaking the law or be a clear threat to yourself or others to have your rights taken. Being crazy is now a felony.

4057

To be clear, the stuff we are talking about in this context is not simply any type of mental illness, but specifically ones where their physician has deemed them to be a threat to themselves or others, and as a result has submitted their name to the federal government for the purpose of preventing them from purchasing firearms.

4058

Most gun deaths aren’t homicides, they’re suicides.

4059

You’re talking about a doctor’s note being all that is required to deprive a person of constitutional rights. You’re OK with that?

4060

Indeed.

They should be treated as two very separate issues because they have two very different pathologies.

4061

This already exists. If a doctor believes you are a threat to yourself or others, they can have you involuntarily committed for up to 72 hours with no other reason than their own opinion.

The conspiracy theories of what the government will do really drives me nuts. Do you honestly believe that, for the 99.9% of the people in this country who own guns and aren’t going to use them to kill someone, that the government is going to pressure doctors to declare them all mentally unstable to take away their constitutional right to own a gun?

4062

Yeah, I’m not understanding the idea that some doctor is going to conspire to take away your guns for some reason. I mean, he’s bound by a code of ethics. He’s a doctor, and on some level you need to have some degree of trust in them.

Otherwise, why are you going to them at all? There’s this idea of, “Oh, well I won’t go to the doctor because I’m afraid he’s going to take my gun away without reason!”

But you aren’t afraid of going to that doctor, who is capable of institutionalizing you? Or is going to prescribe treatment for you?

If you don’t trust the doctor, then you aren’t going to go to him anyway, regardless of whether or not he can take away your gun. And if you DO trust him, and he thinks you shouldn’t have a gun… then maybe you shouldn’t have a gun?

4063

In Obama’s statement in talked about suicides as being the biggest cause of gun death multiple times. It’s not like he’s trying to hide that fact.

But a suicidal person will be a lot less successful if they don’t have a gun than if they do have a gun.

Much like how a person who wants to commit mass murder will be a lot less successful with a knife than a fully automatic rifle.

4064

So, there might be a big push for Smart Guns! I’m pretty okay with that, even if the NRA isn’t, and people in New Jersey will only be able to purchase smart guns within 3 years of coming to market. I’m hoping that the federal government buys them in bulk, bringing all to market in a big way.

Since the big gun manufacturers are too scared of the NRA to make the guns themselves, it will probably come from a start up or a European Company.

Since the last time someone tried to sell a smart gun in the States, it caused a huge shit storm and a lot of death threats, I don’t see Smart Guns coming into the US without a large amount of support from a federal agency.

4065

I don’t think it’s the NRA - the manufactures believe there isn’t much demand for such technology.

Personally, I would have concerns about reliability.

When we increased the drinking age we saw a sharp dip in the number of fatalities among eighteen year olds. We also so a corresponding increase in the number of deaths among twenty-one year olds.

By restricting access to firearms you may (or may not) reduce the overall fatality rate. You will see a shift in methodology - be it pills, hanging, or automobile. I think we should thus consider those implications before proceeding. Better yet, we should design a program that attacks not just the method but the root cause of suicides.

4066

As would I. It adds a layer of ‘things that can go wrong’. Batteries go dead. Electronics fail. People wear gloves. You could have blood on your hands. Yeah, I know, it sounds like I’m just making excuses. It’s a legitimate concern. Especially for LEOs.

Otherwise, as a gun owner, I’m 100% for stricter rules for purchase and sales. And fuck the NRA.