Edit: the smallest credible estimate for defensive gun uses per year is the NCVS’s 100k. (Remember that the gun need not be fired to count.) There are five times fewer accidental shootings, both fatal and non-fatal, per year, per the CDC.

Could you provide a citation for this? I’d be interested in reading it, because that number seems exceptionally high.

I found this, suggesting that based on the NCVS, there is no statistically significant advantage to having a firearm in terms of safety.

One part that is funny though, is that apparently a bunch of the cases of defensive gun use are actually illegal use of a firearm, where some guy with a gun just pulls it for no legitimate reason:

Across these two large national samples of randomly selected telephone numbers, the conclusion was overwhelming: “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”

The surveys also found that when someone uses a gun in self defense, it is often part of an escalating hostile interaction — one in which both participants are likely to be responsible for the event that initially prompted the DGU. One male respondent who reported a defensive gun use described an incident as follows: “I was watching a movie and he interrupted me. I yelled at him that I was going to shoot him and he ran to his car.” Another respondent pulled out a gun to resolve a conflict with his neighbor: “I was on my porch and this man threw a beer in my face so I got my gun.”

I did find the NVCS reporting 80-some odd thousand cases of gun defense in a year, more than I would have guessed. However they note that the vast majority of these cases were of an armed defender claiming to be confronted by an unarmed criminal. I presume most of these cases were trespassing with some property owner showing their gun to a possible intruder. Such cases of course would not require either a pistol or a carry permit. But of course that is just speculation. Perhaps they were all attempted unarmed muggings against virtuous concealed-carry citizens. On the other hand who knows how many of these cases were merely claimed defense against people who weren’t criminal or dangerous at all. But we might as well take the data for what it’s worth.

Obama on Guns just nine days ago: https://twitter.com/Patrick4ONT/status/742029536469082112

that’s a great reply. But it’s so sensible, so few people will listen.

As someone else has said(forget who) , if America won’t do anything about guns after dozens of children were executed, it’s unlikely anything will be done now.

The Trace is not a trustworthy source on guns. It’s funded by Michael Bloomberg, who is the largest single source of anti-gun money in the nation.

As for citations, I don’t mean to be rude, but we’ve been around this exact merry-go-round a half dozen times in this thread already, and you can find my sources, math, and reasoning in any one of those. My opinion, which is well supported by the available evidence, is that guns are used more often to save lives than to take them; even if they weren’t, banning arms is an unconscionable attack on the right of the weakest people among us to defend their own lives on a level playing field.

Your opinion is supported by bugger all. Guns are strictly controlled in every advanced society which results in much less frequent homicides, suicides, mass shootings. As for using them in self defense to save lives, you are deluded.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.84.12.1982

Welcome to Qt3! You’ll fit right in here in P&R with an attitude like that.

If you aren’t a criminal, the homicide risk in the US is similar to the homicide risk in some European countries. (A little higher, sure, but controlling for ‘not being a criminal’ has always yielded a higher homicide risk in the US, no matter how guns are regulated.)

suicides,

Japan bans almost all firearms and has a higher suicide rate than the US. Suicide is a cultural thing, and the only effect gun bans have is to reduce the chance of success the first time. The effect on the overall rate is not established.

mass shootings.

Again, looking at fatality rates, the U.S. is high among developed countries for mass killings (weapon-agnostic; bombings are just as bad), but not in a different league.

Sources are scattered throughout the thread, because we had all these arguments before you joined. Repeatedly.

But that article actually used the NCVS as the ultimate source of data on the issue.

Sorry, I’m not seeing data which supports your assertion. If you’ve got some, that’d be interesting to see, but saying, “it’s somewhere in the past 150 pages” isn’t really helpful.

Selectively and misleadingly. Would you trust a news website funded by the NRA to accurately and fairly sum up a study on guns? This is no different.

As for sources, well, tough. I’m not really interested in having this conversation for the fourth time, except with a new set of antagonists. I’ll PayPal you five bucks for a used copy of a John Lott book, if you really want more data and more analysis of the relevant statistics.

Actually, I think I’m serious about that. You’ve always struck me as the intellectually curious type. If you’re interested, PM me.

The Fox News hoast John Lott? :D

“In response to the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott created and used “Mary Rosh” as a sock puppet to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to use of the Mary Rosh persona. Sanchez also pointed out that Lott, posing as Rosh, not only praised his own academic writing, but also called himself “the best professor I ever had”.”

Any other, perhaps this time reputable sources for your ridiculous claims?

Would you trust a news website funded by the NRA to accurately and fairly sum up a study on guns?

But you just mentioned John Lott, who is a gun rights advocate.

The reality is, simply discounting data because you think the source may be biased doesn’t really do much to further the discussion. That essentially results in you only hearing data which supports your preconceptions.

If someone reports a defensive gun use, where someone else isn’t even attacking them, I’m not certain this really counts. Do you agree? That seems like it is essentially the guy with the gun being the instigator of the problem, and more offensive than defensive.

30 pages back or so I tried every day via Google news searches to find ANY defensive gun use that wasn’t a needless escalation. I struggled. Often the most clear cut defensive gun use looked an awful lot like things would have worked out fine had it not been used.

I even stopped using the Google news search for “robber shot” and tried “home invader shot”. Slightly higher success rate, but even then it was mostly cases of burglars getting shot, and not rapist-child killers being defended against.

There are very few unbiased sources out there. Reviewing Lott’s original and the flurry of papers which flew back and forth, in 2003 the National Academy of Sciences, in 2003, said that right to carry laws either way has very little measurable effect on homicide rate. The Chronicle of Higher Education, at around the same time, said that Lott’s model was flawed, but most researchers nevertheless either agreed with his ultimate conclusion, or didn’t think that expanded legal carry caused expanded violence. (Both citations are on Lott’s Wiki page.)

As for Lott’s status as a gun advocate, well, you’re already reading The Trace, whose article is the same thing, but on the other side. (For what it’s worth, I do read anti-gun sources, too.)[/quote]

The reality is, simply discounting data because you think the source may be biased doesn’t really do much to further the discussion. That essentially results in you only hearing data which supports your preconceptions.

Didn’t you just discount a source (Lott) because of the position he reached after reviewing the evidence? I never claimed that Lott was unbiased. I only claimed that his work is a counterpoint to sources like The Trace.

Aside: Here is a rebuttal to some frequent critiques of figuring out the incidence of defensive gun uses by survey, written by the authors of one of those surveys, which directly comments on some of the things The Trace writes on, though it was written more than a decade ago. (A more recent summary is here.) It also responds to the two David Hemenway surveys in the late 90s on which The Trace bases its claims which you quote below.

If someone reports a defensive gun use, where someone else isn’t even attacking them, I’m not certain this really counts. Do you agree? That seems like it is essentially the guy with the gun being the instigator of the problem, and more offensive than defensive.

That case is indeed something blurry between a defensive gun use and an assault, but Hemenway’s work likely overstates the incidence of those cases.

You only count a defensive use if the attacker is actually shot? So by your definition, an armed robbery only happens when there is an attempted or actual murder?

Didn’t you just discount a source (Lott) because of the position he reached after reviewing the evidence?

No, I didn’t discount him. I pointed out that using him contradicted your previous statement that the other source couldn’t be trusted due to its perceived bias.

Unfortunately this is a case where there are no unbiased sources*. The restrictions on gun violence research effectively ensure that the only people with data are partisans of some form.

*or, at least, no sources that can’t be construed to be biased.

It’s absolutely astonishing and appalling to me that some people think that more guns in a crowded nightclub of 350+ people - where people didn’t even realize shooting was going on until minutes after it started - is somehow the answer here.

According to CDC, in 2014 (latest year available), 285 children ages between 0-14 died due to firearms discharge (accidental / assault / undetermined). More than one a day. If you factor in suicide by firearms, it increases by another 174 to 459.

If you look solely at accidental discharge, incredibly 50 kids die every year:
Five-Year Age Groups Year Deaths
< 1 year 2014 2
Total 2
1-4 years 2014 22
Total 22
5-9 years 2014 14
Total 14
10-14 years 2014 12
Total 12
Total 50

Looking over the past 5 years, the deaths for 1-9 year olds remains extremely consistent. The 10-14 age group is increasing every year.

This is unacceptable. I would like to think that if we created a licensing / training requirement to own a firearm, and more importantly, appropriate storage / handing, we as a society could reduce this number.

Or we can continue to do nothing, and watch this number of children who die to accidental gun discharge continue to increase.

The blood of innocents water the tree of liberty, right?