I am so fucking angry right now.
I remember being a young teenager when Columbine happened. That was some fucked up shit that had serious reverberations across America.
Now we just shrug our shoulders and try to move on, because God forbid anyone stand up to the malathors and olafs of the world.
Good job, republicans. This is on you. These dead children are literally your fault. I hope you’re proud.
There has to be some line in between the parents and all the people you mention. It already exists legally People can be held responsible for the actions of their minor children legally all the time. At least auto civil suits or torts could trigger.
No, nothing automatic should trigger. These should be handled on a case by case basis, and if the investigation into the shooting turns up wrong doing by other parties they should be held accountable. Blanket no-tolerance laws in situations like this won’t prevent shit, but they’ll do wonders to fuck things up even more for families involved.
Holding the guilty accountable is better than just automatically assigning guilt where they might not be any. I’ll let investigators and prosecutors make those calls.
This kid got his guns from his parents. What do you think about this specific case? Should they be held liable?
The Houston chief of police has had it. Posted this on his facebook page:
To all my Facebook friends. Today I spent the day dealing with another mass shooting of children and a responding police officer who is clinging to life. I’m not ashamed to admit I’ve shed tears of sadness, pain and anger.
I know some have strong feelings about gun rights but I want you to know I’ve hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue. Please do not post anything about guns aren’t the problem and there’s little we can do. My feeling won’t be hurt if you de-friend me and I hope yours won’t be if you decide to post about your views and I de-friend you.
I have never accepted the status-quo in anything I do and I’ve never accepted defeat. And I won’t do it now. I will continue to speak up and will stand up for what my heart and my God commands me to do, and I assure you it he hasn’t instructed me that gun-rights are bestowed by him.
The hatred being spewed in our country and the new norms we, so-called people of faith are accepting, is as much to blame for so much of the violence in our once pragmatic Nation.
This isn’t a time for prayers, and study and Inaction, it’s a time for prayers, action and the asking of God’s forgiveness for our inaction (especially the elected officials that ran to the cameras today, acted in a solemn manner, called for prayers, and will once again do absolutely nothing).
I close by saying, I wish those that move on from this page the best. May God Bless you and keep you.
And of course before Columbine there was Springfield. I was a teen too. I don’t remember ever going to school afraid, but I remember being shocked by the one that happened when I was in school and of course the one everyone actually remembers was not long after.
When the incel based killing accord, there was a friend of a friend in my Facebook circle who sympathized with that murder… her reasoning. She believes lesbians, liberals and snowflakes are the reason her son can’t get a date, No seriously, she thinks it’s everyone’s fault but her sons that he isn’t get his entitled school boy romances and… if she is telling her son stuff like this, who knows how that anger against basically… everyone is going to turn out. At no point does she ever believe her son might not need to change because in the end, if women aren’t interested, those women, all of them, are at fault.
Wow, that was a great post. It’s pretty sad he has to acknowledge the people about to unfriend him for suggesting we need to do something about the regular execution of school children in this country, but that’s where we’re at.
I understand the point of view of my conservative family, neighbors, and colleagues when it comes to the desire for personal responsibility and the ability to defend your home and your family if the police can’t or won’t. But something needs to change. This country is sick and much like global warming, many conservatives and most Republicans refuse to acknowledge not just the problem but our responsibility for creating the problem.
Are there no laws that state that you need to have your weapons stored securely? You should be responsible for your own weapons. If you leave your guns lying around where anyone could take them and use them then you should be held liable (IMHO).
Of course they are proud! They can continue to nix more child health insurance programs this way. Don’t need to insure dead kids! TAX CUT!
Parents could be sued in some kind of contributory negligence sorr of way (IANAL). There is no federal law dictating how to secure your weapons in your own home, but being an idiot can still have repercussions.
Well that’s just great.
Umm… that’s not an AR-15. Five shots of 12 gauge before a reload, and a low capacity, fairly low caliber handgun. You won’t be getting rid of those anytime soon. Good luck out there.
I think you are right about this, I don’t think anyone but gun control extremists would be in favour of making low capacity shotguns illegal.
That said, had he gone to trouble of acquiring an AR-15 or even a couple of semi-automatic pistols the death toll would have been tripled.
Lastly there is probably some progress to made in preventing high school students from gaining access to even a shotgun, let alone a concealable handgun.
Absolutely, unless they were locked away and he stole them under threat to their lives.
I find this line of reasoning about parents being liable to be compelling. I’m not sure if it really works, but I think it is worth debating. I mean, consider if my kid–let’s say he’s twelve just for the sake of the thought experiment–took my car keys from their usual place on a hook near the front door and went for a joy ride. And let’s say he smashed into another car and killed a family. Let’s even say, for the heck of it, that he did this on purpose. Mowed down some pedestrians. Whatever. Should I be held liable for those deaths? Could I?
I have no idea what the law says on that, but keeping my kid from doing it is my responsibility. In practical terms, however, how many parents would even consider this a possibility and keep their car keys secured? And if you have no connection with your kid, how would you even know if he was capable of such a thing?
You cannot legislate good parenting, but I suppose seeing a parent or two go to prison might work as a deterrent? Maybe? At any rate, I think it’s worth considering. If I saw a parent go to prison because his kid did a reboot-JamesTKirk with his car, I might consider being more careful with where I put my car keys. Of course kids can get around these things, which is why the idea of teachers having guns is so completely moronic…but awareness and security, even if forced, is a start.
I think gun regulation should be stricter. TimJames makes a decent point above about the 12 gauge shotgun, and I recall having a back-and-forth with a person in another thread about how useless it would be to ban so-called “assault weapons” because the definitions can just morph to whatever the lobbyists want. Size of magazine. Type of stock. Auto or semi. Whatever. With minor tweaks they can easily get around such legislation.
I think gun regulation should be handled similar to the way car registration is handled. I think every year folks who own guns should have to get their firearms inspected and registered, and there should be oversight as far as who has access to the firearms in the home, and how they are secured. I realize this sounds onerous, but I believe firearm ownership should come with a huge amount of responsibility. Maintaining one’s right to own a gun should be onerous. In that way, people may take it more seriously.
The military doesn’t just throw guns out onto the training field and say, “Hey everybody who just signed up! Grab whatever you want and put it wherever you feel like putting it!” They keep track of everything. There is accountability.
There should be accountability for us as well. I got a 20 gauge shotgun as a Christmas gift as a kid. My parents made me go through hunter safety training and were very careful in teaching me how to deal with firearms. I grew up in a hunting culture. So I am sympathetic to firearm ownership, when a firearm is seen as a tool of sorts, or as something for home protection.
However, we are in a different age now, and accountability and tighter regulation seem to be a reasonable step towards having a national policy on guns. And when it comes to respecting the inviolable Holy Constitution, let’s read and respect the whole thing. If we want to pretend that gun owners are part of a “well regulated Militia” to secure our free state, then…well, regulate them.
Regulate the fuck out of them.
-xtien
The primary purpose of cars is transportation. The primary purpose for guns is killing. That’s the difference. The only way a parent should be held liable in your example is if the child expressed an interest to many individuals and you were aware, of his intent to steal a/your car and mowing people down… and then you did nothing to keep your keys away from him.
I understand this as a talking point, jpinard. I do. But that is not the way gun owners see it. Some have them for recreation. Some have them as a deterrent. But I do know this as a point. I just don’t see how it gets us anywhere as far as furthering the discussion on developing a practical policy with regards to firearms.
This is the point I was making, jpinard.
There isn’t really a practical way to force parents to know their kids through legislation. Time and again we see people say of killers, “He was quiet and kept to himself. I’d never have thought him capable of that.” I realize, as a parent, that it is my responsibility to cultivate my kid’s mental health. I know this because I am a decent parent. But, again, there is no way to legislate this.
So, for the sake of discussion, I think the idea of being more strict with regard to firearms, even to the point of trying to regulate who has access to the firearms, is a start. If I knew that me owning a car was contingent upon the fact that my kid could never drive it without my permission–or else I’d lose the right to own my car–I’d be pretty careful about my keys.
So the argument about “primary purpose” has nothing to do with what I’m saying. With all due respect. I already know that. I’m trying to figure out how we can do this reasonably. Because we cannot go into every home in the U.S.A. and confiscate guns at this point.
-xtien
I think we should hold parents liable for sending their children to these public school death zones.
All we really have to do is just uphold the 2nd Amendment. It says right there that only members of a well regulated militia are allowed to have guns. Serve in the National Guard of your state, you can have a gun (issued by the National Guard, probably). Don’t serve? No gun for you. You MUST be part of a well regulated militia to own a gun. The 2nd Amendment does not say unrestricted freedom to own any weapon like the NRA tries to lie and fool people. It’s an argument with a first part and a second part. They both go together.
"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
So all these people with guns that aren’t in a miltia that’s regulated by the government (note the militia is regulated, not the arms) are in violation of the Constution. The founding fathers were arguing that gun ownership MUST be regulated. It’s REQUIRED.
So let’s get rid of that, unless someone wants to give me a really good explanation of why collecting this data and studying it is a bad thing.