All-purpose gun legislation thread

Politics and religion
5672

All of that is good stuff, well articulated. I would add an addendum to

This is a big part of the problem. It makes the killer seem ‘cool’ gives them ‘power’ lets them get their message out because everyone seeks out why.

Nip that shit in the bud.

Our media needs to stop the glorification. Do not give out the killers name. Do not detail their struggles. Don’t give them the attention they want. Portray them less sympathetic, make them seem like the psychopathic losers they are. Because all of what you said is true, those are all needed steps, but so is this I feel.

Make this outlet seem less appealing, and less people take it. Right now the 24 hour news media is part of the problem feeding this.

5673

I have yet to see an example of a 5 or 10 year-old of any race involved in a mass school shooting. I also never said I expect anyone in high school to have the understanding and maturity of an adult. You asked why it’s nearly always straight white males doing the high school shootings. I gave you a plausible answer.

I’m not forcing maturity on anyone. Are you honestly trying to convince me that a high school student who is Muslim does not understand when he is the target of racial slurs that it’s about his skin color and faith? That when a high school student who is openly gay is bullied with homophobic taunts that she doesn’t understand that it’s about her sexuality? It doesn’t make it one iota less horrible and wrong, and it certainly in no way makes it easier to bear for that person, but it at the very least gives them an idea of WHY.

I also don’t appreciate you attributing offensive ideas and words to my posts that don’t exist. That’s not an effective way to discuss a topic, please stop.

5674

Totally agree. The 24-hour news media and it’s need to feed the public frenzy in order to reap advertising dollars is a huge part of several major current problems in this country.

5675

You’re mistaking words with understanding. Has someone told them that, yes. Do they understand what that means… maybe… but probably not.

You can feel offended if you want, but you are making huge assumptions about these experiences without maybe ever having that experience. Why is it so difficult to be challenged on that front by someone who has had those experiences? Why can’t you just hear it? This deep understanding you think these kids have, that they can walk away from being bullied and just “know” why… I don’t think it’s what you think it is. And you’re using that in your explanation like it is something you understand.

I promise you that a minority can feel this: really am just a worthless piece of shit loser l, even if they are being targeted by a racist or a bigot.

There is nothing in your post that requires this paragraph:

Like Stepsongrapes mentioned from his personal experience, if you are being bullied by racists or homophobes, chances are you understand why it’s happening (because they’re racists/homophobes), see it also happening to others, and while it’s still a terrible thing you can understand that it isn’t just about you in the end…it’s not anything you did or are doing, it’s because you are -blank- and these idiots hate -blank- people because they are racists/homophobes.

I would suggest not using it. You can explain the experiences of these young white men without trying to incorrectly express the experiences of the others.

5676

Look I was bullied pretty mercilessly as a child, had poor social skills (compounded by my Baptist upbringing encouraging some persecution complex stuff), and was nerdy. And, yeah, I know you remember what it was like to be a nerd in the 90’s, it was not good. The reality was that the reasons for my social isolation were hard to pin down.

The fact is that I assigned that reason for my misery as being on religious grounds, and this was explicitly encouraged by those around me.
‘Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.’
‘You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.’
‘For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake’

These are things I was told and reinforced growing up. And it gave some way to direct my angst. Granted it was in no small part because of certain behaviors and ignorances caused by my upbringing. Seriously, you’d be shocked at how having grown up in a house where Ghostbusters toys are thrown away because your parents believe they are bringing in evil spirits, where anything fantasy (and especially magical fantasy) is considered an opening to demon possession, where the D&D is satanism is taken as a de facto truth, where listening to popular music, or even Christian bands playing popular styles, is sinful, how all of that can really mess with a childs ability to socialize normally with peers. When you’re in grade school and all your friends are into Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Pokemon, but evolution is evil so you are stuck watching cut rate Hanna Barbera knock off bible cartoons?

So, yeah, I had some issues. And I got bullied pretty bad. And ironically I was able to correctly put some solidarity, I suppose, in my circumstance by placing it on being part of some group. Granted it was the specific baggage around that group identity that was the source of many of those problems, but that took me decades to tease out. It didn’t make it better, and it didn’t make it easy, but it did make it feel slightly less alone.

So to that end I think @Enidigm’s point is entirely valid. It doesn’t make things suck less, but having some group identity to cling to in the midst of such troubles does make things less isolating. If only because there are other people you know who understand how you feel. Set aside how many of my troubles were because of choices made because of family group identity, in ways that a minority or woman don’t have the option to choose because it is inherent to who they are, but not having something to identify with would have made it worse for me. Because it did feel like nobody understood, that nobody really cared, that it was so unfair. That without the group to associate with, that transport my circumstances 20 years forward with these online toxic communities subbing in for that group solidarity?

Yeah, that kind of thing could go very differently. As it is I can recognize, in retrospect, how the seeds of those things had started to take root. I did start to feel the ‘nice guy looses out to jerks’, before ultimately rejecting those types of behaviors. And so, yeah, I see how these behaviors and toxic communities can draw in people. How someone lacking some identity to draw upon can more easily fall prey to their sway. It’s not healthy, nor is it good. But people by their nature need to find people to group with. And bullied white male? What group do they draw to? If you want to know why that demographic is more likely to perpetuate this kind of violence, there’s probably something there.

5677

How is it somehow universally incorrect? As a minority child, I sure knew why certain dickheads were dickheads. More importantly, I had a clique around me of other minorities who were also being treated badly for the same reasons. That made a huge difference.

I honestly don’t understand why you feel the need to be so possessive of hardship; as if white kids can’t ever reasonably suffer or why you’re so certain that the worst that any white kid (ever) has experienced must be better than what the best minority kid has experienced.

It’s not a zero sum game.

5678

Again, you’re spiraling off in a different direction based on your focus on a single piece of my overall post. I’m not making any assumptions other than the assumption that a teenage kid is intelligent enough to understand that -insert racial or homophobic slur- is, in fact, a racial or homophobic slur. If you feel that assumption belittles the experiences of people who have experienced racism, then I do apologize, as that was not at all my intent.

Believe me when I say I am well aware that ANY person, regardless of race, sexual orientation or religious faith, can be made to feel like they are worthless, especially when they are in their formative and vulnerable adolescent years where much of their future identity and self-worth can be formed. That is exactly the problem we need to solve, for everyone. What we were discussing however was why it is predominately white males who take these feelings and channel them into aggressive action in the form of school shootings. Several people have attempted to provide an insight into that…insight which you have decided to argue is somehow racist and steeped in white privilege.

Your arguments are often based on this assertion that other people here cannot possibly understand what you yourself have been through, that since they have not had your experiences they are somehow not qualified to comment on certain issues, discuss certain points of view, or propose theoretical solutions, no matter how good their intentions might be. That we’re never going to “get it” because we aren’t you. And you’re correct, nobody here is you, nobody here has had your specific experiences or lived your specific life. Only that works both ways. You have no idea what experiences anyone else here in this forum have had in their own lives. Maybe you know if they’re a certain race or a certain gender or a certain faith because they’ve identified themselves as such in a previous post, but you DON’T KNOW who they are, where they’ve come from, what they may have seen, or done, or endured, or lost. It’s extraordinarily hypocritical for you to simply assume nobody else can possibly understand what it is to be marginalized, discriminated against or to feel worth less than the people around them every day, and then attempt to school us on it in damn near every thread. I don’t say this to make you feel bad or unwelcome. I don’t say this in anger. I say this because I believe you are a valuable member of this community, and I like you, but I also wonder, as you asked me, “Why can’t you just hear it?”.

5679

But minorities are not one thing. You can be black and fat and ugly and a nerd. You can be a Muslim, a woman and a nerd. This idea that that you always know why someone hates you because of your skin, or your religion… it’s not universal. And that’s assuming you fully understand these ideas to begin with.

He just threw a racist word at me may not actually mean he’s treating me like that because he’s racist. It’s a 14 year old kid who doesn’t want to share a game on a computer. He might be pissed because he’s been told women shouldn’t game. He might be pissed because doesn’t know how to act around girls. He might be pissed because his dad beats him at night. There’s no clear understanding here.

And you’re right, it’s not a zero sum game. So there is probably a way to explain what it feels like to be isolated as a young man who is white without trying to make it sound like it’s somehow easier for others to experience hell.

I am not trying cheapen the experiences of others; I’m trying to get someone to explain it without oversimplifying how everyone else feels often without actually understanding how others feel… It’s going to be difficult get past that second paragraph for a lot of people, and it’s completely unnecessary to get to the point.

It’s already difficult to hear all the sympathy and the empathy as it is, because the other groups don’t get that when they kill people like these kids get, that benefit of the doubt. We don’t see hugs and understanding when kids in gangs kill people. We don’t see a lot of deep inner searches when violence is committed by other groups. A lot of those young men and some women are rotting in juvie or prison without much soul searching as a nation. It’s already a difficult pill to swallow knowing that, and it’s a tall ask for someone to hear about someone else’s experience while in that same explanation, someone is trying to wrap up the other experiences as if those are not only easy to explain but experience and understand too.

5680

Holy shit (no pun intended) @CraigM, that is pretty awful stuff for a kid to have to deal with on his own. Thank you for sharing that, and I’m glad you were able to break that cycle and become the person you are today.

I had a couple of kids I went to school with who were in very similar situations (strict religious families). The one I knew all the way through adulthood did not turn out well at all, and it was definitely a result of his home situation and his eventual (and I would argue inevitable) rebellion against it.

5681

Nobody said it’s easier, I don’t think. Only that the outlets seem to be different… and hypothesizing why that might be; i.e. white boys may be less well equipped socially to handle bullying without turning to violence or eventually acting out their revenge fantasy.

5682

This implies that you are not going to internalize these experiences and just somehow know there is nothing wrong with you as person… except that’s probably not true for most. These are teens. Kids can be such vicious and horrible people to each other, and throwing racism, or nerdism or gender and sex into the mix does not make anything clearer.

This isn’t about me being possessive of racism or bullying or the sometimes just awful experience young people go through. This is a rejection of the idea that somehow you can, even as an adult, take these experiences and separate them into neat and tidy piles of this is hate against my race, this i hate against my religion, this is hate against me.

5683

No sympathy or empathy here. These white kids that kill their classmates are monsters. Our goal as a society should be to figure out how they got to that point (which is part of what we’ve been hypothesizing about in this thread) and find a way to intervene before it gets that far, both for the benefit of that specific kid, and all his classmates who are potential victims down the road.

And I totally understand where you’re coming from on this point. Far more attention is paid to white school shooters than to black or Hispanic kids who are killing each other on the streets in cities all over America. That is absolutely intolerable, and one of those issues with the 24-hour news cycle that we were talking about earlier. In the same way we need to focus on what is making school shooters commit their crimes, we need to take a hard look at why inner-city minority kids are far more likely to die in violent crime than any other demographic segment. It goes back to the pillars of Education and Opportunity…if we can figure out ways to assist those communities with building both of these pillars, we would have a good chance at saving a lot of kids lives so they can focus on building a better future for themselves and their community.

5684

No, certainly not. Kids can be mean little shits, cruel and malicious. And certainly trying to say ‘I experienced negative thing X because of…’ is a fools errand. Even looking back at my own experiences how much can I attribute to any aspect? How can I correctly assign what was poor fashion sense, cultural isolation, my own learned hang ups, disinterest or ignorance of what is considered ‘normal’ kids stuff, kids lashing out because of their own bad home experiences, or just being cruel because kids are selfish brats sometimes? I don’t know, I couldn’t begin to guess how much any one factor contributed.

And I wouldn’t try.

However what we are trying to communicate is that the reason is irrelevant. It’s having an outlet a group to find solidarity with, that’s an important thing. Even if it is misplaced, it can help a pre teen/ teen rationalize it and give some sense to it, rather than internalizing the message they’re a loser.

And also

Beat me to it. As I said upthread, I feel strongly the media should quit romanticizing and empathizing with these vile cretins. Don’t give their name, don’t read their manifesto. Portray them as the losers they are, and be done with them. At the same time spend more effort trying to contextualize why violence happens, and what we, as a society, can do about it. And that certainly means looking at inner city conditions that breed gang violence, and the failed institutions there. How policing policy, the drug war, and lack of opportunity lead to these things.

5685

That’s not what that implies at all, and is exactly why I accused you of putting offensive ideas/words to my post that were not there. What that implies is exactly what Stepsongrapes (whom I referenced in the paragraph) said…that being called a “dirty Kike” by another teenager absolutely makes you feel terrible, but at it’s base level you understand the slur is leveled at you because you’re Jewish, and while it doesn’t take any of the sting out of the words, you at least understand that you’re not the only Jewish person in the entire world, or probably even in the school for that matter. There is some sliver of shared suffering there could provide the thinnest of threads to hang on to.

5686

Pretty much all legacy media (print and video/audio) have adopted and use guidelines on reporting of suicides, deliberately to avoid copycats and triggering other vulnerable individuals. There was a study that suggests when they ignored the guideline to report of the celebrity suicide of Robin Williams, it resulted in a 10% increase in suicides.

There are a lot of media watchdogs clamoring for some similar restraint guidelines on reporting of mass murderers, but maybe because of revenue needs or because of the flattened journalism environment, there has been limited success.

5687

Okay. I can understand this but… And i know I once again I got called out for trying to say something is universally incorrect in a way no one liked… but I am going to do it again anyway and hopefully this time make sense.

It is incorrect to assume that someone, say who is black, will have the black community as an outlet. That implies that the black community is more perfect than it is. There is rejection within the black community as there is with all these communities, to varying degrees. You cannot assume that someone has an outlet just because they look a certain way or identify with a larger group like a religious group. If you could that, you could say this white kids have an outlet too, the white community… but you can’t can you?

If all it takes to have the black community, for support, is to have a some sort of black experience, then all it takes to have the white community, for support, is to have a white experience… expect that’s not how it works is it? And it doesn’t make sense when you try to say it that way so… maybe not try to apply that the other communities.

Again, i am not trying to be offensive, but I don’t think this natural understanding is there, in the way you think it is. I just don’t. I don’t think some 15 year old kid is going to get some racial slur thrown at them and that hits them and they say, internally, oh well that’s just because I am Jewish and somehow experience it holistically different than if someone screamed they were fat and should die. I don’t think that experience is… as different as you think it is.

I appreciate this because every time we talk this white experience, today’s topic, I have to shut down the anger and frustration that comes with knowing that we’re talking about this because a young white man murdered his classmates. And I know, and almost everyone knows, if this person had been black, Hispanic, Muslim, or LQBQTA, we’d be talking about terrorism, perversion, and spreading fear instead of understanding.

And no, I am not often successful with this attempt because I am not as perfect as often required to be. And it infuriates me knowing how many people who did make the news, who were not even armed, and killed no one, did not get this treatment, and we spent more time talking about their imperfections, and what they could have done differently, than we have with these kids who actually committed murder. These kids we’re supposed to understand and on level I guess relate to their experiences of various kinds of rejection.

I’d mention the kids killing other kids, but that doesn’t even make the news, and if it did they’d probably stick it under black on black crime for one group and not sure what they do with the other groups since they don’t report those either.

5688

I think it’s more about the support structure you might have access to rather than how you interpret the bullying. White males are often awash in white privilege and toxic masculinity that prevent them from making meaningful connections to others who might pull them back from the brink, and ultimately lead them to carry out revenge fantasies which are ultimately deeply selfish acts.

5689

This seems to be the only type of crime where the media does not withhold the names of minors involved as a matter of policy.

5690

In case you wondered why this kid was fucked up, look at his upbringing:

AP Central U.S.
‏Verified account @APCentralRegion

“My son, to me, is not a criminal, he’s a victim.” Father of Santa Fe High School shooting suspect says he believes his son lashed out because he was bullied.

5691

One might argue… he’s both?