self-defense is a natural right. The 2nd Amendment is not really a natural right, but Napolitano is saying that it was brought on as an extension of that natural right to self-defense and personal sovereignty. That I am my own person.

Gun-grabbers throw out that “then every gun owner wants to own a tank or F18 fighter jet, etx, blah blah to fight the gov’t” -or- “What use is your rifle against tanks, drones, etc.”

First, yeah, I actually do know people who wouldn’t mind owning an M1A1 Abrams tank. They also know that it’s impossible, and not because of laws, but by simple economics and training. Say that you could buy an M1A1 tank as easily as you can buy a Hyunda Accent. There’s a tank dealership right down the road. How exactly is someone going to afford, or even finance a $4.3 million dollar tank? I mean really. It’s a fantasy world dream. No one will buy one, and the dealership will go belly-up. Same thing with jets, drones, etc. Lets not even talk about where you’re going to store your depleted uranium sabot rounds.

How will we fight against a tyranical government? Uhmmm… we won’t, not until armed civilians in massive massive numbers with massive co-ordination get together and decide to do it. Until then, simple gov’t local law enforcement can and does take out small pockets of resistance today, commonly known as armed criminals.

The whole, “I’ll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands” is simple chest thumping and bravado. Gun-nutz talking of civil wars…pffft. No. Too many rely on gov’t infrastructure to deliver bread to the local supermarket, supermarkets rely on oil and electricity, oil and electricity rely on gov’t infrastructure, all rely on the federal reserve note we call a dollar. Do people actually think they’ll take to the hills, go native, and live off the land fighting the gov’t? Trading bullets and corn in some weird barter system?

Would the outcome been different in Poland. First off, it was a different time then, as it is now. I don’t know, but we do know what the effect was when they didn’t fight back. Did Poland have an army, tank factories? Would it have changed history? Doubt it. It’s all speculation. But I will say, their lack of self-defense, whether it was given up or taken, did them no favors.

In the 1770’s, colonists had the same weaponry as the british army. Going forward, through the decades, we see that military industrial complex outpacing what civilians could use/afford. In the 1940’s, tanks, planes, steel battleships. 2013, drones, smart bombs, apc tanks, helicopters, men, and money.

Could 80 million gun owners rise up, co-ordinate, and fight a tyranical gov’t. Uhmm… no, and if they could, to what end? to start over? USA ver. 2.0?
Most gun owners use the 2nd amendment (to insure a free state, the right for citizens to bear arms, fight against a tyranical gov’t, etc) to guarantee their right to use guns for their natural right of self-protection. The 2nd amendment right does not grant me the right to hunt, sportsmanship shooting, or even self-defense. Self-defense is a natural right that cannot be bestowed on me nor taken away from me by gov’t written on some 200 year old document.

When someone tells me I cannot have a gun, you are effectively telling me I do not have the right to protect myself. You are taking my gun (by force of laws), but in no way taking the gun of a person (a criminal who does not follow the law) who has the intent of doing me harm.

There is a responsibility to owning a gun. Some take it seriously, other do not. 80 million households with guns, and gun-grabbers would think that half of them would have shot themselves yestarday by rage or accident. 40 million deaths over night would be something but it didn’t happen. Instead we had 34,000 total gun deaths in 2011. Out of 34k, 11k due to homicide not including suicide or accidents. Out of 80 million households that have guns, 300,000,000 firearms in public circulation, thats a pretty tiny number of deaths. 34,000 lives gone. Shoot outs between criminals, suicides, family and friend accidents, murders, homicides. 310,000,000 million people = Shit happens. Sounds callous, but it is what it is.

The AR-15 rifle attributes to a statisical nothing in all gun deaths, but it’s the low hanging fruit. It’s the feel good measure of 2013, so somehow… in some weird logic, a rifle that accounts for something like .005% of gun deaths, that banning it will somehow effectively reduce the 99.995% of all gun deaths in any measurable way. Does that even make sense when you look at the numbers?

Why do you need an AR-15? That’s the arguement I hear ALL THE TIME. My arguement is, “Why don’t you have an AR-15?”. Statistically, it’s the SAFEST of all firearms.

Is control the word you’re looking for? :) I just thought it was cute. After all, the NRA is big on gun safety too!

Right, that’s why they uniformally oppose any at all legislation around storage. The NRA lobbying arm’s position appears to be that there are no changes whatsoever that should be passed to anything.

For example, mandatory safety training for a concealed carry permit? Nope.

Dammit, walked right into that one. I forgot it only counts when it’s for a federal law. Kicking myself now…

“We will support no changes whatsoever if they’re encoded in a law, regardless of consequences” is not a safety focus. They’re quite happy to throw anyone with mental problems under the bus, however; note their push for a national registry of everyone with mental illness. Same deal for speech.

Do you see what you both did there? Firearms experience=bad guys. You equated that guy to mass murderers, arsonists, housebreakers. Your bias shows.

There are roughly the same number of car-based deaths per year as gun deaths, in the States. In fact, gun deaths are predicted to outstrip car-based deaths in just a couple of years. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gun-deaths-set-outstrip-car-fatalities-first-time-152632492.html;_ylt=AilcpytaoGp5MdlaEqiTGsys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNrMjloZjNxBG1pdANNZWdhdHJvbiBGUARwa2cDMDY5ZTg1ZWItODFiMi0zNmIyLTgzMjItOTY5YmExNjMyMTRiBHBvcwMxBHNlYwNtZWdhdHJvbgR2ZXIDZTFmYTUyMzMtNDlmNS0xMWUyLWFmZmQtZmYwNDg4NDM4Zjc1;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

The utility and role of cars in our society and economy is tremendous. A dramatic reduction in car-based deaths would almost certainly cause substantial upheaval.

In constrast, data from socio-economic peer countries indicates that a substantial reduction in gun deaths (from all sources: suicide, accident, and crime) is theoretically possible, without the type of upheaval that would be accompanied by ditching or severely curtailing cars.

“Shit happens”, from a policy perspective, is probably better stated as “some things have a justifiable cost”. That’s a pretty undeniable statement for car-based deaths. I stongly disagree on gun-based deaths. Focusing on the number alone as justification is basically saying anything at 30K deaths a year is fine, because it’s small potatoes. 30K a year makes gun-based deaths #1 or #2 for non-medical causes of death. I’d argue that only a very small set of things are worth that cost.

No, I have firearms experience and I don’t consider myself a bad guy. I also don’t consider myself uniquely qualified to write our gun laws.

I don’t understand this idea, though. I’ve got more firearms experience than, say, the local talk radio host who’s a 2nd amendment supporter. So I guess I over-rule him. Houngan, OTOH, has more experience than me, I think. So he over-rules me. But the Chief of Police in, say, Chicago, has more than either of us, so maybe he gets to write the rules. And John Kerry shot at people in Vietnam, so maybe his gun experience means he should write the rules. I’m just trying to work out the hierarchy of gun experience here.

Is there any other area in which we would write the laws like this? Should bankers write banking regulations? (They sort of do, but I don’t think that’s a good thing). Should auto manufacturers decide what’s a safe car?

Let me repeat: “I don’t buy the argument that just because people can kill other people with lesser weapons, that we should allow them to have greater ones. The fact that an improvement is only incremental, rather than a total solution, doesn’t make that improvement invalid.”

They’re working on it.

However it appeared at CES 2013, the truth is that self-driving cars are, technologically, within reach. Almost every new car uses drive-by-wire technology, which can or already is controlled by computer. Google has successfully demonstrated sensors, processors, and software to safely drive cars in a variety of different conditions. And Audi showed how the sensor technology can be made to fit in a production vehicle without appearing to be some bizarre alien device mounted on a roof rack.

The major hurdle in the U.S will involve liability issues, which will require legislation and public trust. Continued testing will likely solve the liability issue. As the technology proves reliable and safer than human drivers, insurance companies may push the issue through legislation, as it would lessen their payouts.

I agree, but I also see how it’s difficult to draw the line. I need a car primarily to save myself the time (lots) or money (less) that taking mass transit or cabs would cost me. If I had a gun, I’d need it for self-protection (arguable) or enjoyment (shooting ranges, hunting). Where do we draw the line saying which of these uses is worth the what level of risk? I know my opinion, but it’s only an opinion, and there’s plenty of others.

Another comment on the cars vs guns comparison - for cars, we do require people to take tests before using the vehicle, buy insurance, strictly limit the usage of the high-powered versions, and register their ownership. Seems reasonable to do that for guns as well. While we do have some of those things, we don’t have them all, and I would argue that the parts we do have are very limited compared to what cars have.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the end-game would be? Overall ban on handgun ownership, semi-auto ownership, etc?

Given the sheer numbers of guns already in circulation, and their longevity, would you think existing weapons would be grand-fathered in? Or would there be some time (maybe 50 years from now) when they’d turn them in (depending on where public opinion sits 50+ years from now).

Basically, what do you think a reasonable long term gun-control policy given the realities of the current state of gun ownership is in the US. Are you thinking of playing a very long-game, like decades?

Ok, that’s a totally reasonable position. I just wanted to make sure that we weren’t confusing topics needlessly.

I’m not convinced the Assault Weapons Ban has any actual impact other than just a Overton Window-type shift. But I don’t actually have very strong opinions on it either way, other than generally preferring fact-based solutions to emotional ones (not that anybody here is necessarily offering the latter, but a lot of the public media discussion is definitely emotionally based).

Click twice, folks. Wisconsin has a safety training course,

Wisconsin’s law passed following years of lobbying by the NRA. To get a permit, the applicant must be at least 21, pass a background check proving they’re not felons and pass a firearms training or hunter safety course.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/nra-to-fight-van-hollen-s-concealed-carry-training-rule/article_b709aa76-f84d-59bf-a140-b6963ec16797.html#ixzz2Hg3Tfyeo

What the NRA objected to was the Attorney General attaching a rider that made it mandatory for applicants to attend a minimum of 4 hours of training without specifying what that training would be or how it would be administered.

While I’m generally all for increased training in most circumstances, it’s dishonest to paint the NRA as “anti safety training” based on this. Keep in mind that they’re the only group that actually provides firearm safety training to children, it’s kind of a tentpole subject for the organization.

Meanwhile, in “Let’s pass legislation to reduce the number of high-capacity magazines in circulation” land:

According to the gun review site, “Haus of Guns,” backorders for the Magpul AR-15 30-round magazine (“PMAG”) have surpassed one million.

Edit: Not to mention:

The National Rifle Association has gained more than 100,000 new members in the past 18 days, the organization told POLITICO’s Playbook on Thursday.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/nra-100k-new-members-after-sandy-hook-86001.html#ixzz2HgG6GPVm

We’re going to go back to the original NRA argument. If you make handguns harder to obtain, people are just going to start shifting to using assault rifles for crimes, right?

So, today’s Joe Biden Gun Violence Task Force meeting is with “leading figures in the video game industry” according to the media. Does anyone know exactly who is meeting with the VP? Is it the ESA? THQ? Jack “Fuck You Very Much” Thompson?

You should leave the economics to people who get economics, Tim. :)

Unless you’re going to join me in calling for a firearms tax?

I’m sorry I got you guys hung up on the economics comment. I should’ve just left it as a lesson from politics, because change also happens there on the margins. Not sure why I tried to cross the principles in a situation where my intent might be misunderstood. My mistake.

Doesn’t say who, but here is interesting article discussing this:

It’s OK. I’m just amused by the guy whom (I assume) would oppose a yearly tax on firearm ownership appealing to the (possibly pseudo-) science that strongly makes the case for such a tax.

Polygon confirmed that the ESA president, Mike Gallagher, is one of the representatives going to the meeting, as well as somebody from Gamestop, but beyond that the attendees are a mystery.