Indeed, yet to the gun grabber concern trolls the average kid shouldn’t be protected at all, let alone the lowly average citizen adult. Yet, most of those gun free zones have led to people dying because they had no protection. The Virginia Tech shooter killed over 30 people with two pistols.

If the police need “patrol rifles” (the marketing/political term to avoid “assault weapon”, they’re usually ar-15 variants) then why can’t the average citizen have one? You’ve got Rep. Nadler from NY claiming you should only need 4 bullets in your gun for self-defense or hunting deer. Someone gift this guy a copy of Left for Dead2 off steam (before they tax the games). Or you know, drop him in the middle of cracktown with drugged up folks looking to mug their way to more meth or crack. 4 bullets may not put the perp down unless you get a headshot. The secret service carries the FN P90, full auto smgs or “point defense” rifles with 50 round mags. I want the presidential family protected by that kind of firepower but I can’t use it for my own family?

No. You can’t.

Houngan always goes off and says that the demand for equal firepower (e.g., tanks, etc.) is a anti-gun boogieman and that no real gun advocate argues for that, but here you go.

Supposedly, the Secret Service employs Stinger portable launchers to protect the president and the White House. I can’t believe you aren’t allowed those. Seriously? Your argument is you should be allowed whatever the authorities have? Maybe you should have the power to tax, as well, while you’re at it?

We ceded certain power to government that we don’t have. Deal.

This has made all 63 pages of this thread worthwhile.

Well, we kinda have a laboratory here, so let’s find out: Ranulf, do you think we should be able to own tanks or antiaircraft missiles?

H.

Well they do say a well-armed society is a polite society. My dad once had a client who used to drive to work in a tank; but that was in Beirut in the 70s…

Having lived all my life in suburban areas, first in the Northeast, then in the Mid-Atlantic, and now in the South, I’ve encountered many private gun owners. I have met avid hunters and avid shooters. I have also met people who own a gun, but haven’t taken it out of the safe in years. Some acquired it by happenstance, others purchased it very intentionally. All will argue that their weapon(s) serve a valuable self-defense function, even though none has ever used them for that purpose.

A minority will hunt, and they will own rifles primarily. A smaller number, usually those owning handguns as well as rifles, will target shoot on even a semi-regular basis. These are the folks – the enthusiasts – who would, if allowed, buy light weapons and heavy ordnance. Most of the gun owners I know are in another category altogether. They will own a handgun or two. They will have used it twice, on average. Once, on the range, very shortly after their purchase, and once, at the instigation of friends, during a social outing. All of these people, whatever their hobbies, will typically be staunch Republicans and Evangelical Christians with extended family in rural parts of the country. They will know people who use guns for all of the reasons mentioned at the outset of this paragraph, even if they themselves do not. For these people, gun ownership for reasons of self-defense is usually on a short list of putatively “adult responsibilities” – becoming certified in First Aid, learning to drive a stick shift, volunteering around the community, building a “Go Bag” for emergencies, and learning to swim.

In my experience, gun owners have had few words, kind or unkind, for the NRA, and if they talk about gun control, they will almost never invoke the idea that private gun ownership is a meaningful check on tyranny. They will worry instead about the registration of guns and their owners, and they will casually describe gun control as an obsession of a Looney Left™. Almost all of them have said at some point or another that “weapons bans” are largely cosmetic, and that gun control legislation is doomed to failure because so many guns are already in private hands.

The interesting current here is that all of my gun owning friends have essentially bought into the argument that guns make a home more safe, not less. This is true even though I know only a handful of gun owners who are childless.

In my experience, liberals tend to worry about guns not because they fear that the intended owners will use them to do violence, but because they are concerned about who else might have access.

And that is really one of the two big arguments today. The first is whether or not restricting access to certain kinds of accoutrements (extended clips) will hinder mass killing as it is being carried out. (And here, there is an unspoken assumption that very brave people will be able to charge and subdue the shooter while he or she is reloading.) The second is whether we focus on culture (violence, mental health), on the tools of violence (gun control), or both.

I suppose I’ve always tended to agree with that famous notion of Spock’s: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Because I don’t see firearms as contributing meaningfully to my own personal safety, owning one seems like nothing so much as a liability. If I don’t intend to use it, why keep one around? I’m also discouraged from thinking too deeply about what kinds of weapons should be available for private purchase because I am convinced that my government isn’t to be feared. And even if it were, what hope could a rag-tag band of untrained, overweight insurgents mostly unfamiliar with the Great Outdoors have against a world-class professional military? The colonial militia didn’t win the Revolutionary War, and it wasn’t nearly as impromptu a fighting organization as is popularly supposed. Gun ownership was an obligation. Militias drilled at least semi-regularly. Most able bodied men knew how to shoot. Civilians and professional soldiers had access to essentially the same kinds of small arms and light weapons. And the colonial army was leavened by the large number of men who had cut their teeth fighting the French or the Indians or both.

…The heck are you people talking about?? Is this not the premier gaming forum on the internet!?

Executive Order #24: Everyone gets a stinger missile launcher. Because DUH

While I agree with the rough outline of gun ownership in your post, I have to take issue with both of your assertions in the last paragraph. The entire idea of liberalism is based around caring for the needs of the few as best as is possible from the means of the many. As an easy analogy, gay marriage doesn’t contribute to my own life because I’m not gay, so why should I support it? Or perhaps that since I’ve never been on Medicaid it must not be important. I’ve never needed help paying medical bills, ergo Medicaid isn’t necessary.

It’s a reductive argument to highlight the point, I’ll grant you, but simply because something doesn’t apply to you (yet) doesn’t lessen its relevance to others that might not share your situation. I lose track of how many people I know that were pro-choice up until the time they got married. Maybe the prospect of kids made them change their mind, but then maybe they decided that since it no longer applied to their situation they could take a different stand with different rewards for their personal self-image.

As to the idea of a tyrannical government in the current US culture, I agree with you. We’re decades and several major unforseeable paradigm shifts a la 9/11 from that being a possibility. However you’re wrong about how effective an insurgency could be for the same reason; without a Syria-level “destroy that city completely” policy a man with a rifle behind a curtain in a building where you can’t discern the enemy is about the most dangerous thing on the planet, and there are 200 of gun owners for every fighting active duty military. Again I offer for us to pursue a thought experiment on how a despotic government would look in the US. I’ll provide data and skill set of the “insurgents” as best I know from my upbringing among casual gun owners and my current interest among the competitive hobbyists and the best shooters in the world.

That’s a critical point and you did a beautiful job explaining it. The Bill of Rights was intended to protect the few, from the many.

Good luck, President Obama. You’re going to need it.

At this point I think they’re just seeing if there’s anything that people won’t support:

A non-exempt person who purchases, rents or leases more than 1 rifle, shotgun, firearm, machine gun, large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device in any 30-day period shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000, or by imprisonment for not more than 2 ½ years, or both, for a first offense; and for any subsequent offense shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 and not more than $5,000, or by imprisonment for not more than 2 ½ years in a house of correction or not more than 5 years in the state prison, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Fuck waiting periods, if you buy more than one gun or magazine per month you go to jail.

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, knowingly possesses or knowingly has under control in a vehicle a dangerous weapon, or an air gun, so-called BB gun, paintball gun, air rifle or air pistol or other smoothbore arm capable of discharging a shot or pellet by whatever means or replica of a firearm, large capacity weapon, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, machine gun, assault weapon in any building or on the grounds of a public or private elementary or secondary school, college or university without the prior written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 1 year, or both, and may be arrested without a warrant.

Looks like the olympic air rifle shooters only get to attend their first match, after that it’s the pokey. This comes from the governor of Massachusetts.

http://www.mass.gov/governor/legislationeexecorder/legislation/an-act-to-strengthen-and-enhance-firearms-laws.html

I like how they put “so-called” in front of BB gun but not the invented term “assault weapon.” Haha!

other smoothbore arm capable of discharging a shot or pellet by whatever means

I’m pretty sure this covers drinking straws and spitballs. Citizens Arrest!

In light of the President telling the CDC to resume research into firearms, Brad Plumer wrote a post about the state of the art of gun research. It’s not pretty. Here’s a list of basic questions we simply cannot answer at this time, owing to a lack of data:

*How many guns actually exist in the United States?
*How do guns get into the hands of people who commit crimes?
*What percentage of gun owners even commit gun crimes?
*Is there a relationship between gun ownership levels and crime?
*Are criminals deterred by guns?
*Do limits on high-capacity magazines reduce the number of deaths?
*Does firearm licensing and registration make people safer?
*Do gun thefts increase crime?
*Does gun ownership affect whether people commit suicide?
*What’s the best way to restrict firearm access to those with severe mental illnesses?

That doesn’t seem to stop people from posting studies and statistics nonstop. It’s good to remember how unreliable they are.

I got a chuckle from his statement that the debate seems to go on forever because it’s hard to find reliable data. Yeah, those culture wars always end quickly after we get new scientific reports.

Better data wouldn’t end the debate obviously, but it would make it possible to have a more informed debate.

Pass a special law. The UK did, for instance.

(How else do you think we had the shooting events, given our normal gun laws?)

Okay, this is just stupid, unless I’m really missing something.

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, knowingly possesses or knowingly has under control in a vehicle a dangerous weapon, or an air gun, so-called BB gun, paintball gun, air rifle or air pistol or other smoothbore arm capable of discharging a shot or pellet by whatever means or replica of a firearm, large capacity weapon, rifle, shotgun, sawed-off shotgun, machine gun, assault weapon in any building or on the grounds of a public or private elementary or secondary school, college or university without the prior written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 1 year, or both, and may be arrested without a warrant.

What the hell is this trying to accomplish? Cracking down on…replica weapons? And blowguns? Also, up to $500 or up to 1 year in prison? That seems like much too small a fine or much too long a jail sentence.

School security seems to be getting a blip of attention this week. I think it’s because it was mentioned in the executive actions. I’ve seen numerous reports about local schools getting training and security reviews. I saw this survey of the situation on Yahoo from Christian Science Monitor. Great headline too.

They quote Ken Trump, who runs schoolsecurityblog.org. He gets a lot of play in the media. He has a consulting business on the back end, of course, but I don’t hold that against him. I agreed with this assessment when I saw it in Obama’s proposal:

Obama’s proposal to help schools hire an additional 1,000 SROs and counselors “is not even a drop in the bucket,” Mr. Trump says. Just $150 million was proposed for that, plus $30 million for helping schools improve their emergency plans
Other alarming statistics:

While 84 percent of schools had a written response plan for a shooting in 2010, only 52 percent had drilled their students in the past year, according to the White House.
The excitement might die down as the shooting fades from memory:

Or, as some experts suggest, will a flurry of attention to the issue fade off priority lists for schools in this tight-budget era, much the way it did after the initial post-Columbine focus on bullying and school safety?
I think the key to that is to stop looking to Washington for money and attention. Active parents need to be the motivators here. You don’t need millions of dollars to feed a school resource officer until he dies. Get the security survey, get a second opinion, add some access control, and start drilling. (Note: don’t pretend to have a gun in order to “test” security, as illuminating as that might be.)

I suppose parents are just as susceptible to laziness and demotivation as politicians are. That’s okay. They’ll get another chance. These shootings aren’t going away, based on the response I’ve seen so far.

“Access control” will be the biggest cost, sure. Even systems which purely track attendance, and won’t stop someone jumping over them, cost millions. Securing a typical site, while not slowing everything to a crawl? Expensive, very expensive.

And of course it’s going to, even in the best case, slow evacuations…