Just watched Rumsfeld on Meet The Press. Tim Russert said that the Iraqis are supposedly going to trot out some American prisoners on Iraqi tv at 11:30 am EST. Rumsfeld was evasive, but seemed to indicate that, yes, there are some missing U.S. servicemen and, yes, they may be prisoners - though he speculated that they may also be captured journalists. I haven’t seen anybody else reporting this yet. Anyway, plan to be in front of a television at 11:30.
This morning they were reporting that American POWs were being executed by Iraq. I didn’t completly understand how they figured the American’s were executed, since there seemed to be evidence of a firefight prior to capture. If it’s true, it’s just infuriating to hear this sort of thing.
If they found the bodies, they would be able to tell. For example, guys killed with one bullet to the back of the head were probably executed. And there would be powder burns or stippling if they were shot at close range.
I wonder if this is true. If so, it’s sickening, although I suppose I shouldn’t have expected anything less.
CNN is confirming that Iraqi television thing:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/23/sprj.irq.info.minister/index.html
I wouldn’t bet on them being executed on camera, but I’ll bet they’ve been tortured enough that they will be made to read a statement against the war, and then killed. Saddam is getting desperate: the troops are only 100 miles from Baghdad. His regime will be up within a week, and he knows it, so he has nothing to lose at this point.
I think the evidence is al Jereeza film showing uniformed bodies in an Iraqi morgue. I am hoping this is just an American stunt to flip people still on the fence about the war. Although I am sure the current Iraqi regime is capable of doing something like this, it is quite another thing to have them actually do it.
As much as I hate to say it, it’s probably in the (live) POW’s interest to get shown on TV. That way, we have proof that they were alive when they went into Iraqi hands, and if they come out of this dead, the Iraqis involved will know that they will be held fully responsible for that.
The reason I say this is because of the still-murky fate of US Navy Commander Speicher, who was shot down on the first night of Desert Storm and assumed KIA at the time. But there have been several disturbing reports since then that he was secretly captured by the Iraqis and never disclosed as a Prisoner of War. Thus, when all the official POW’s were released, the Iraqis still had Speicher, who, to our knowledge, was killed in action.
The reports I mention include a couple of defectors’ reports, including one guy who said he drove Speicher to Baghdad and instantly identified his photo from a lineup.
Then there was the incident when satellites located the remains of Speicher’s F-18 in the desert. Special Ops was preparing to send a team into Iraq covertly to investigate the wreckage and attempt to determine if Speicher managed to eject, but the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of the time (Shalikashvili) nixed the mission, fearing a Mogadishu-like debacle leading to a diplomatic incident. So the military informed the Iraqis of the wreckage and asked them to allow a joint US/Iraqi inquiry team to inspect the wreckage. The Iraqis hemmed and hawed for a week or two, but by the time the inquiry team arrived at the wreckage, it had all disappeared, taken away by the Iraqis covertly.
The Navy last year changed Speicher’s status from KIA to MIA, but some folks said that was a ploy by the Bush administration to dump more charges on Saddam’s lap. But I remember reading about the above accounts in the mid-90’s, when Clinton was in charge. 60 Minutes also did a piece on this in the mid-90’s as well.
Back to events of today, that’s why I’m clad we have footage from the Iraqis of those prisoners. The chain of evidence shows them going into their hands alive, and they better come out of their hands alive.
Woolen, I think your hypothesis of being shown on television = good assumes that Iraq’s leaders feel that the situation could possibly get better. As opposed to the reality of the situation - for those in charge in Iraq right now, things can’t possibly get any worse. Are a couple of dead Americans really going to add to the charges of crimes against humanity that these guys are going to be facing within weeks? America has so far led a largely bloodless war against Iraq which has already put them within a hundred miles of Baghdad. Entire Iraqi divisions are giving up without shots even being fired. And even if these guys managed to escape the American troops, they are going to be the target of thousands of Iraqis gunning for vengaence for a murdered or raped relative. Utter desperation rarely makes people act better.
You’re assuming that the subordinates who the leaders order to kill any US POW’s actually want to get their hands bloody with the knowledge that their lives are pretty much forfeit if they do so.
Most Iraqi military personnel have to know that even in defeat they can come out of this war honorably and with a future if they follow the rules. But they’ve also got to know that killing a US POW is going to guarantee them, at best, life in a military prison somewhere. At worst, they’re going to get lined up against a wall against by some pissed off American troops and shot.
We do have reports that our threats to go after anyone who follows Saddam’s orders to use WMD will be held culpable has had a deterring effect on certain units. The same will go here.
For what it’s worth, here’s a detailed account of the Al Jazeera footage from someone who claims to have seen it:
I was watching Arabic news, Al Jazeera, and they were interviewing some American troops that they say were captured in Nasiryia (sp) in the fighting yesterday (Saturday), from unit 507 (?). Fox News says that´s a unit that´s based in Texas.
Here´s what I saw: There was one Black-American woman, “Shawna,” with corn-rowed hair and who said that she was from Texas and wasn´t wearing any shoes, and another fellow, that appeared to have been shot in the stomach, I believe he said his name was Sgt John Reilly.
All of the captured, said they worked in “maintainence.”
There were two other men - One looked quite disoriented (he was sitting on a chair and seemed to be in a state of shock), another couldn´t understand any of the questions being asked him, and indeed he seemed to be laughing at the Iraqi reporters (I took the laughing as odd, as it was more a sign of nervousness, or showing that they fellow was disoriented). Maybe that had to do with questions, which were bizarre. One of the questions was how were you greeted when you came into Iraq, “with guns or flowers.” The response back was “I´m sorry I don´t understand.”
One of the men said he was from New Jersey, and another from Kansas.
The fellow, I believe it was Sgt Reilly, was at first laying down, injured, there was blood on his shirt, his pants were unbuttoned, and he was holding his stomach. He didn´t want to speak, but the person from Iraqi news, lifted him up into a speaking position - okay, he basically forced him to speak, putting his hand on the fellows head, and then lifting him into a sitting position. Certainly not the type of journalist behaviour that one would expect, which make me think that this “journalist” might have been military and demanding that the fellow speak.
The tape was edited, quite obvious, since it jumped from scene to scene. While it wasn´t live, Al Jazeera reported it as a live exclusive.
The images were coming in from Iraqi television (as identified by the microphone and logo), and relayed by Al Jazeera. The images appear to have been taken in a hospital, there were a ton of journalists asking questions.
There were also images of dead (three or four?) in what does appear to be a hospital morgue, which they said were American dead. Fox News says that it appeared they were executed with shots to the head, but to tell you the truth I didn´t catch that. I believe, that´s because I was just so horrified by what I was seeing.
UPDATE: Thev´re reshowing the morgue scene - it´s totally disgusting, American soldiers laying on the ground, at least 10 that I could count, and indeed with shots to the head! There is a person moving the bodies around, and the camera angle follows them focusing on the wounds of the individuals. They are laying on the floor, heaped on each other. Since posting this, I can say that on Al Jazeera now this is one of the top news items, and they keep showing the images over and over again. Every few minutes, there are the images of the poor men, their bodies, thrown in a room, lying on a concrete floor. As disgusting as it is to say, there were pools of blood under the bodies, which I would think suggests that they were recently dead.
Besides the fact that this breaks the Geneva Convention, my heart goes out to them and their families.
I see that Fox is thinking about relaying the news, but saying the Dept of Defense looks like propaganda. Of course it was, but it certainly does look like US troops. The accents, the clothes, etc.
I see Rumsfeld says that he hasn´t seen the report and can´t confirm it. Well, I´m not a professional, but it was very disturbing, and certainly did appear to be true.
Relatedly, Al Jazeera is showing other scenes where there are American dead from a shoot out, and a a burnt out vehicle that appeared to be something like a tanker. Sorry I can´t describe better, but I´m not a military person. I can say it didn´t look like an attack vehicle, but rather something that would follow behind for supplies. I´ve just heard a report on Sky News that there was an attack near the same place named above, where at least 10 Americans died from rocket launchers that hit an amphibious vehicle.
Lastly, I´m not claiming the veracity of these reports, I´m merely saying what I´ve seen. And it is truly disgusting.
the pics here on Al-Jazeera are graphic. these appear to be our dead soldiers.
The link doesn’t work for me. Has the site been blocked somehow?
You’re assuming that the subordinates who the leaders order to kill any US POW’s actually want to get their hands bloody with the knowledge that their lives are pretty much forfeit if they do so.
Most Iraqi military personnel have to know that even in defeat they can come out of this war honorably and with a future if they follow the rules. But they’ve also got to know that killing a US POW is going to guarantee them, at best, life in a military prison somewhere.
That certainly sounds compelling. You ought to time-machine-telegraph the guys who just shot our troops in the back of their head with whatever the Arabic word for “nine millimeter” is, since I don’t think they got that particular leaflet from the US propaganda drops.
I think the evidence is al Jereeza film showing uniformed bodies in an Iraqi morgue. I am hoping this is just an American stunt to flip people still on the fence about the war. Although I am sure the current Iraqi regime is capable of doing something like this, it is quite another thing to have them actually do it.[/quote]
Wait a minute. Why the fuck do you think it’s an American stunt???
Follow-up question, Tim: do you think the American military shot its own troops executioner style in order to make a bogus video tape to feed to Al Jazeera in order to “flip people on the fence”? Or was Tom Savini involved in post-production?
You know, of all the ridiculous anti-American/antiwar stuff you have written, this has got to be the lowest of the low. What an awful thing to say. You disgust me.
I won’t believe anything until I see it on Fox. They’re the crackerjack investigative reporters who broke that alien autopsy story.
Woolen Horde I thought the Spiecher reclassifcation was made in the last two months of Clinton’s term.
Mark,
That link is just overloaded. Keep retrying and you can see.
But you don’t want to.
What Denny said. I got in on my second try (although only about 2/3 of the pics came through). It’s quite graphic, and very sad.
I noticed that one of the shots shows an American with a gunshot wound in the forehead, somewhat to the right of the centerline, and there are what look like powder burns around the wound (meaining he was shot at extremely close range). At least, they look like powder burns to me, although I’m not a coroner. And he was pretty dirty. But I’m 90% sure.
A few days ago, the US military publicly speculated that the Iraqis would try to do this: dress up as American troops and kill their own people in order to blame it on the US. I don’t really think the US killed our own troops on purpose in this case, but I suppose a case could be made that they were the ones who claimed this was an effective military strategy in the first place.