More:

Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z Hen. This has to be watched just because it is ridiculous. I watched the first episode and I don’t have the slightest idea about what happened. Sometimes I didn’t have any idea even about what was on screen. The art style is wild and fits well Go Nagai. The second episode reboots and starts to make sense.

Asura Crying. So so. Starts with usual school situation with some mysterious characters. Then it degenerates and some mech thing also appears. It’s passable and the voices are good. Characters are good but I don’t know if the plot is going somewhere interesting or it’s just boring. The animation is too static.

Valkyria Chronicles ep 2. The same as the first. The plot continues to make no sense at all. They have this new tank with weird design, super speed and invulnerability. Do you think they are going to use it in the battle? Nope. They leave it sitting on the corner while they use some old junk that obviously breaks in the middle of the battle. End scene is about the new tank, operated by the new crew who has no idea, going against the enemy army and blowing everything up (and doing sideslips). Only after many deaths and distress to justify the first part of the episode. If all the characters didn’t act like idiots this would be watchable.

SPOILER: they’re actually part-dino, it’s why they tank-drift all the time.

Did anyone ever watch Tytania? I want some awesome anime space opera, and I tried Legend of the Galactic Heroes, but being German myself, that show’s constant and repeated obsession with labeling people and things with unintentionally hilarious German terms completely takes me out of it.

You won’t find a better anime space opera than LOGH. Tytania is terrible. AFAIK the closest you’re gonna get is probably Crest of the Stars, which I’ve heard some good things about.

Oh, and theres Space Battleship Yamato, known as Star Blazers in the US.

Haha, I can imagine. The imperial dudes are inspired by 19th century Prussia. And not just culturally, even the space battles resemble that era. I had to laugh when they explained why radio doesn’t work during battle and they needed messenger ships.

FWIW, I couldn’t really stand the imperial side because all the nobles and titles and protocol seemed so cheesy. However it’s not too long before that stuff takes a backseat due to changes that occur throughout the empire.

What is up with the Japanese infatuation with Germany, anyway? Seems like 95% of the time, if Japan wants to riff on European themes, Germany is their go-to nation.

Anyway, Space Battleship Yamato (aka Star Blazers) is an early classic, but I’m not sure it’s aged well. Crest / Banner of the Stars is a pretty nifty scifi series, but it’s also pretty low-key: not a lot of badass space battles, if that’s what you’re after; it’s more of a coming-of-age drama.

I’m also fond of the underrated Starship Operators: premise is a bunch of space cadets decide to wage a guerrilla war against the empire which just conquered their planet; in order to pay for their ship & supplies, they agree to become a reality TV series. The show actually plays it straight, rather than being the satire I expected; but there are some nifty (if also low-key) space battles which play out like long-range naval engagements - i.e., attacking each other based on sensor contacts, never coming close to other ships, playing cat & mouse (one episode is about hunting for a stealth ship - aka “space sub” - before it gets them first), that sort of thing. It’s not exactly hard scifi, but it definitely goes for a more subdued, somewhat more plausible take on space combat than, say, Gundam.

What about Glass Fleet? I never saw that one.

The whole “allied together in World War II” thing probably had some impact.
Also, culturally, Japan seems to respect Germany as a center of international technological development and so has an interest in being able to absorb German culture and particularly language. There are letters in the katakana alphabet that I believe serve purely to represent the phonetics used to transliterate German into Japanese. I don’t find it any odder than the way Japan has gone out of its way to absorb elements of American culture and language; it’s to their advantage as a nation to do so in many ways.

(Also, Japan also has great fixations on French, Portuguese, and Italian culture-- but if you watch mecha shows, the militaristic overtones mean you see a lot of German. If you watch shoujo, it’s French and Italian all over the damn place.)

I’m also fond of the underrated Starship Operators: premise is a bunch of space cadets decide to wage a guerrilla war against the empire which just conquered their planet; in order to pay for their ship & supplies, they agree to become a reality TV series.

I want to second a recommendation of this show. I checked it out on a lark after hearing a lot of other fans dismissing it out of hands as a disposable bishoujo series (and there are elements of that) but the writing and premise was really far cleverer than I ever would have expected. It even manages to say some interesting things about the way anime stereotypes plot roles by gender while also poking fun at the worldwide fascination with “reality” TV. I would say it is a satire, if not in the broad “parody” sense of the world, certainly the “deconstruction” sense.

It’s not exactly hard scifi, but it definitely goes for a more subdued, somewhat more plausible take on space combat than, say, Gundam.

Well, goodness, the first thing Gundam did back when the shows cared to explain their worldsetting was invent a magic particle that made long range sensors useless in combat! Really, Gundam should never be approached as having more than sci-fi trappings because it doesn’t-- it’s always about putting Super Robots on the battlefield. Sometimes the franchise treats the robots as vehicles and sometimes in the traditional manner, as superheroes, but Gundam is at heart no more than a stone’s throw from Getter Robo. The fans just don’t like admitting that.

What about Glass Fleet? I never saw that one.

Awful, awful, awful. Look, I like Tytania and I just found Glass Fleet utterly wretched. I’d really recommend the early space operas that forthrightly have nothing to do with science fiction, like Yamato or Harlock, a thousand times over Glass Fleet. While crude in some respects they’re at least very creative and heartfelt. Glass Fleet is sterile, derivative, awkward… bad in all the ways a modern anime is likely to be.

Glass Fleet is on Hulu. I saw the first episode and wanted the last 30 minutes of my life back.

Well, yeah, but I was wondering if there are longer-term ties between the two which would explain the infatuation, especially in military anime. It’s not as though the Germans were the only militaristic European country!

(Also, Japan also has great fixations on French, Portuguese, and Italian culture-- but if you watch mecha shows, the militaristic overtones mean you see a lot of German. If you watch shoujo, it’s French and Italian all over the damn place.)

I guess this is what happens when you’re more familiar with Gundam than, say, Rose of Versailles or Ristorante Paradiso - you end up with a skewed view. :-)

Well, goodness, the first thing Gundam did back when the shows cared to explain their worldsetting was invent a magic particle that made long range sensors useless in combat!

Most space operas invent excuses (if they address the issue at all) for why combat scenes are up-close-and-personal dogfights rather than taking place at extremely long ranges. [Beyond “it looks cooler,” even though we all know that’s why.] And the notion of sensor jammers rendering long-range engagements impossible isn’t that implausible in a scifi setting, although in that case one wonders how ships find each other in the first place!

I was just pointing out that Starship Operators is one of the few scifi shows which goes for slow long-range engagements, so that those who dig big mecha fights don’t come in and end up disappointed.

Glass Fleet is sterile, derivative, awkward… bad in all the ways a modern anime is likely to be.

That’s too bad. I kinda liked the art samples I saw, but there’s just soooo many bad-to-mediocre shows these days that I don’t even bother checking out new shows (not even for free) without seeing some positive reviews first or a strong hook. In this case, that looks like the right move.

Most space operas invent excuses (if they address the issue at all) for why combat scenes are up-close-and-personal dogfights rather than taking place at extremely long ranges. [Beyond “it looks cooler,” even though we all know that’s why.]

You may be confusing “space opera” with more Western notions of soft sci-fi here. My idea of space opera in anime is basically the precedent set by the Leiji Matsumoto stuff, and he never bothers to address even basic issues of realism in his work.

If anything he goes out of his way to be as unrealistic as possible in his treatment of space, with people walking around on the decks of their ships all breathing and talking as their capes flutter in the cosmic breeze and logic-defying space trains zoom by in the background.

Glass Fleet, incidentally, tries very badly to be Gonzo’s version of the whole Matsumoto vibe. Nothing that goes on in the series has any grounding in science fiction at all, it’s also full of people talking and breathing in space. Glass Fleet just does it in a really stilted, poorly characterized fashion.

Well, back when Japan was first sending out their youngest and brightest to the Western world around the 1900s they pin-pointed a number of countries of countries that they thought ‘got it right’. Out of those, they thought that the orderly, diligent Germans had many similarities to personal values that Japan held in high regard and that resulted in a many scholers in Japan looking to Germany as the model to build their own empire up from.

…although in this case I think its a matter of popular stereotypes playing in ;) Japan loves to stereotype each country/area to be #1 in something…and well, if it comes to being militeristic Germany is it. (In case you’re wondering, USA is #1 when it comes to loving everything ‘big’)

Matsumoto’s stuff is definitely a form of space opera, but hardly the only version of it in anime. E.g., Macross is space opera too, IMHO, without delving into Matsumoto’s more outlandish elements. Basically, if it’s got epic space battles, melodrama, and high stakes (i.e., the Fate of the World / Solar System / Galaxy hangs in the balance!), it’s space opera. :-)

Glass Fleet, incidentally, tries very badly to be Gonzo’s version of the whole Matsumoto vibe. Nothing that goes on in the series has any grounding in science fiction at all, it’s also full of people talking and breathing in space.

Heck, even Batman can do that.

Having seen Hetalia Axis Powers, I can believe that. :-)

Oh geez, I don’t want to be that guy, but if you hand me a genre definition sourced to Wikipedia my first instinct is to completely ignore it. There are things Wikipedia is good at but defining genres in any medium isn’t one-- generally fans will pencil in the name of anything even vaguely related to the genre descriptor and it’s rare editors know enough to remove them. Wikipedia definitions tend to be really overly broad so fans can fit in more series names.

You end up with totally non-useful definitions like the out you outline below. Anime’s use of story is always fixated on the development and iteration of really precise formulas and for anime’s sake it’s easier to have coherent discussions if genre terms are used in precise ways. A long time ago (English-language) anime writers settled on “mecha” for stuff like Macross and “space opera” for the works descended from Matsumoto, because trying to discuss either lineage bogs down into nonsense without distinct terms to use.

Maybe modern fans have largely abandoned this stylization but it was consistent when I entered the fandom in the late 80’s. If so… ehhhh, I reject your reality and substitute the one I’m used to. =)

Is that a polite way of saying the medium is heavily derivative and lacking in originality? :-)

Not wanting to be that guy, either, but the definitions of genre labels are not mutually exclusive: e.g., Macross and Gundam are both mecha shows and space operas, IMHO, while stuff like Patlabor and Evangelion are just mecha shows. “Space opera” has always been loosely defined, but it’s handy shorthand for scifi with a few common elements (high-stakes plot, large-scale battles, interstellar travel, season with melodrama to taste). And the term has been around long before, say, Yamato and Star Wars came along. Not my fault anime fans tried to co-opt it for their own nefarious purposes! :-)

Anyway, I’ve been watching anime a decade longer than you and am older & crabbier, so what I say goes! Now get off my lawn!

Now back to something which actually matters: any good recent anime with spaceships blowing up?

Hmm, yes and no. By Western standards anime is inarguably derivative and formulaic in terms of subject matter, but I don’t believe it’s appropriate to apply Western standards to material that’s fundamentally not produced for that audience.

It’s mainly a matter of audience expectation and quite a bit of Japanese pop culture is about playing with formulas. What sells is usually an iteration of something familiar with a twist in either plot or presentation.

That is an aspect of anime I find highly interesting so it’s not something I want to either pretend isn’t there or just write off out-of-hand as a purely negative trait. It’s just a very different approach to creation I think is worthy of being kept in mind.

Not wanting to be that guy, either, but the definitions of genre labels are not mutually exclusive: e.g., Macross and Gundam are both mecha shows and space operas, IMHO, while stuff like Patlabor and Evangelion are just mecha shows.

This is again a matter of cultural perspective. Western use of genre labels is usually very fluid because genre is only expected to influence a series’s content in broad strokes. A good show’s content isn’t thought to be able to be summed up by genre.

Because anime is all about the iteration of formulas that are quite a bit more rigid, genre descriptors say a lot more about what the show is likely to be about and how it’s written. I suppose it’s a matter of preference whether you use genre descriptors in a Japanese or Western sense when you talk about anime-- but I’m used generally to speaking to people who use the Japanese sense, so it’s just a matter of what I’m used to. Sorry for any implicit or explicit dickishness.

Now back to something which actually matters: any good recent anime with spaceships blowing up?

Tytania is as close as it gets, really. Spaceship-oriented stuff is kind of out-of-style as anime production goes-- usually if it’s made at all it’s made on a cut-rate budget because it’s thought of as an old-fashioned genre that’s not marketable any more. There’s been some nostalgic Matsumoto stuff recently but produced on atrocious budgets.

If you are using a definition of space opera that includes anything with a space battle, you run into the problem of fighting robots being more marketable than fighting spaceships. So in the handful of recent mecha shows that involved spaceships at all, they were hardly ever relevant to the outcome of battles.

Most mecha shows now treat them as vulnerable targets that need protecting, since the dominant production influences are still Gurren-Lagann and GaoGaiGar. I would kind of like to see us get out of this rut which is why Tytania was, for me, a welcome change of pace.

One of my professors made the point that the Japanese have a cultural tradition for appreciating minor variations on a theme or work of art - e.g., changing a single syllable in a haiku - which Westerners largely lack. Fair enough, but when it comes to pop culture, it still seems like an excuse to rip off each other rather than come up with something new. Cultural relativism only goes so far when it comes to covering for a dearth of imagination. :-) And it’s not as though Japan has a lock on that; Hollywood and Top 40 Radio keep cranking out the same formulaic crap year after year.

I would point out that most of the popular anime shows which end up getting repeatedly ripped off were ground-breaking in their day; and I would further argue that they were popular because they were ground-breaking, not in spite of it. E.g., Gundam was one of the earliest “serious” mecha shows, Urusei Yatsura set the standard for the modern harem comedy, Evangelion married “A Boy & His Robot” with intellectual pretension in a way which spawned countless imitators, etc. I suppose you could argue those shows belong to well-established genres - Gundam & Eva are still mecha shows, after all - which makes them less than ground-breaking; but I’d still say it’s the way they reinvented old cliches which made them popular, not their adherence to them.

What it boils down to is: someone comes up with something really popular and a lot of folks try to hop on the bandwagon rather than blaze their own trail.

There was an article I read recently about the decline in anime’s popularity in recent years - measured in both sales and the number of shows produced every year - and one of the factors blamed is the rigid adherence to conventions and established genres you mention. Basically it claimed that even the Japanese eventually get tired of watching the same old crap over and over again. :-)

I suppose it’s a matter of preference whether you use genre descriptors in a Japanese or Western sense when you talk about anime-- but I’m used generally to speaking to people who use the Japanese sense, so it’s just a matter of what I’m used to.

I don’t have a problem with anime having its own genre labels - there are plenty to choose from already, like “harem comedy” and “Eva knockoff” - I just get annoyed when they overload existing labels from other mediums because that’s confusing. That’s mostly just a pet peeve, though. :-)

It can very easily turn into this, especially with anime production budgets much lower now than they were in the more creatively fertile 70’s and 80’s. But even back then… oh lord, I’m trying to watch all the major Super Robot shows of the 70’s for a blog project I’m working on in my spare time and some of that stuff is just so blatant it hurts.

Cultural relativism only goes so far when it comes to covering for a dearth of imagination. :-) And it’s not as though Japan has a lock on that; Hollywood and Top 40 Radio keep cranking out the same formulaic crap year after year.

No, but generally Westerners acknowledge that sort of thing is bad or at least not anything to be proud of. Japanese are sometimes outright proud of the role that production committees and sponsors play in dictating the outcome of a story, as they feel it results in superior product.

Generally the Japanese fans only object to reliance on formula when properties either start being incoherent due to editorial interference or are copying past formulas with nothing new to add whatsoever. Even then it’s mostly the superfans and die-hards who will ever object at all-- most other folks just get bored and move on to other entertainments.

I would point out that most of the popular anime shows which end up getting repeatedly ripped off were ground-breaking in their day;

Sometimes, sometimes not. Some shows that built up huge mainstream popularity just did so by being in effect the right thing at the right time, or by presenting a not-quite-new idea in a way that was novel in terms of visual or production style.

Evangelion married “A Boy & His Robot” with intellectual pretension in a way which spawned countless imitators, etc.

Evangelion is a classic case of the right show at the right time. When it was produced, pretty much all GAINAX’s competitors producing mecha shows were at creative nadirs. The psychologically-written mecha show was regarded as a relic of the early 80’s and the ones that survived were shallow toy-selling engines.

Evangelion roared in with a completely original design aesthetic for the machines, very high-quality fight choreography, and many completely original character archetypes to supplement its subversive use of the classics. The plot wouldn’t have been seen as original, so much, most of it directly parallels material from its predecessors, but the it was executed was inarguably compelling and fresh at the time.

I suppose you could argue those shows belong to well-established genres - Gundam & Eva are still mecha shows, after all - which makes them less than ground-breaking; but I’d still say it’s the way they reinvented old cliches which made them popular, not their adherence to them.

I can give you Evangelion there-- while classed as a mecha show, it’s also a pointed deconstruction of classic Ultraman in some respects and that warps certain aspects of its story structure in interesting ways. Gundam, though, was pretty pedestrian material for '79. I mean, it did manage to get canceled the first time through!

Most of the themes and plot beats were already covered by a highly-regarded predecessor called Voltes V that just had the misfortune to opt for a conventional Super Robot aesthetic. What Gundam really brought to the party was a new visual sense for mecha shows, the one that Macross and especially VOTOMS later refined. So Gundam didn’t get really hot until the compilation movies in the early 80’s, when there was merchandise on shelves for older fans.

What’s out and worth watching:

Rideback (12 episodes total, already finished, but watch it if you haven’t)
Eden of the East (new series)
Tears to Tiara (Bloody fantasy series woooo)

And most definitely, Phantom: Requiem for a Phantom. It’s noirish and interesting, and there are a lot of great camera angles. Keep a sharp eye out for symbolism of crosses, as they’re everywhere - the shadow falling from two crisscrossing ceiling beams, a character with arms extended, they’re everywhere. I really like where this show is going.

And Tytania of course. It’s LoGH, but it tries really hard to come close. It’s slow and political and the tactical aspects are great, reminiscent of Code Geass. You know from the first episode that you’re in for a great space opera.

I’m really enjoying Cross Game. Great slice of life show.