On my brother’s recommendation, I recently watched Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion. I’m not really sure whether or not I think it’s good. I’m interested what others make of it but unfortunately not interested enough to wade through a 60 page thread.

Most of the other anime I’ve watched has been films, which have on the whole been very good. Geass seemed kind of… weird and exploitative, but also had some pretty interesting ideas sprinkled through it. I’m not sure I’d watch another anime TV series if I was expecting more of the same kind of thing. But I might.

Code Geass is weird and exploitative. Kind of a depressing (but not bad) show because of the protagonist and all the crap that happens to him.

I’d watch Blood+ at the moment.

Geass is fairly typical of how a modern anime TV show tends to turn out, though I will note it’s in some ways more exploitive than most due to current Sunrise policies regarding popularity polls and writing.

Basically, if something doesn’t prove popular with audiences right away it tends to disappear from the series rapidly, with something popular instead getting more emphasis no matter how it deforms the story to make this happen.

(Most of Geass’s severe deformities come out toward the latter half of the first series and R2, when Sunrise was able to put the most pressure on the production team to make changes.)

Pretty much any Sunrise show produced after 2004 or so is going to show production poll influence very noticeably. Some other production studios get in on the act, too, though I notice BONES seems to refuse to alter a show drastically based on popularity feedback.

The only modern series that I’d say was produced 100% free of popularity poll feedback as a production influence was Xam’d, since it was produced in a fashion more consistent with old epic OAVs like Legend of the Galactic Heroes than a modern TV production.

I would heartily recommend Xam’d to anyone. It is not without flaws, but the show is consistently interesting in a way that is likely to please a fan of anime-as-film. It is very hard to obtain legally in the US right now but I actually rented it all through PSN and felt like it was worth the price.

I enjoyed Code Geass, although yes you can definitely see them altering “unpopular” things in the show to make it have more appeal to the masses who wanted to see more of X character and less of Y, as well as other things – for example, note the dramatic reduction in the amount of the RTS-style tactical planning after only halfway through the first season. It does have an interesting, and unexpected ending though and some of the tactical aspects are very cool. Eden of the East’s final episode resembles it quite a bit, as was discussed upthread.

But definitely don’t put down any series because you didn’t like one. Go back and watch the greats: Wolf’s Rain, Twelve Kingdoms, etc… I can think of plenty of great series if you’d like to know them. Oh, and definitely watch the more recent Claymore – it became so popular amongst us QT3 anime watchers that it even got its own rather long thread in this forum and reeled in some of the folks don’t usually watch anime.

I never understood why the hell Sunrise did this. Scenes like this were why Geass picked up its intense fan-following to begin with. It felt like an honest-to-God expression of the Real Robot aesthetic instead of the ridiculous merchandise ads Sunrise had opted to churn out instead starting… hmm… sometime in the 90’s, really.

So what does Sunrise do now that Goro Taniguchi has pulled a late-night success out of a show that failed to take the do roku timeslot it was intended for? Why, they make him change it into a completely different show just in time for the inevitable ratings surge that comes with the last 6-8 episodes of any mecha show running on Japanese TV. No wonder 2chan was so violently angry over R2’s even more drastic overhaul into an ad for character goods!

It does have an interesting, and unexpected ending though and some of the tactical aspects are very cool.

I didn’t find Geass’s ending particularly unexpected. Based on the first 11 or so episodes it’s entirely the direction I would’ve expected and wanted the show to go in.

Allegedly that also would’ve been the ending of the series as originally pitched for the do roku timeslot… which is quite interesting when you consider that the show was drafted to be about Suzaku, and became a show about Lelouch as a result of having to be produced in a different format and timeslot in order to be produced at all. It was certainly meant to be the ending for Lelouch as a character at the time the first 11 eps were made, at least according to Taniguchi.

Of course, Sunrise execs are talking about doing more Geass sequels despite what happened in the ending. Sequels that would still somehow feature Lelouch!

Interesting stuff to know, however I still did not see the ending coming until Lelouch really started to become the Evil Emperor, because that just didn’t jibe with what he was trying to achieve. I would have liked to see the show be a bit more about Suzaku, but I can understand why they went with Lelouch – he has the Geass, and thus he is the “Powered Up” character. Many anime series focus on the character with the best special abilities. In fact the flip-flopping convergence and divergence between Suzaku and Lelouch is actually very similar to Ryouhou and Kazuma in sCRYEd – another Sunrise series. Although I think sCRYEd did a better job of balancing character and screen time between the two.

But seriously, more Geass, and involving Lelouch?! Lelouch had his time. Fuck, I don’t even know where they’d start a new sequel based on what happened at the end. Set it a thousand years in the future or some shit? A prequel? A gaiden taking place in the middle of the original? Sigh. If they’re going to bother, they should just pull the Gundam card and make the same series over and over again but with slightly different stories and names for each faction. Hell, it’s worked for 30 years for Gundam, hasn’t it?

Apparently the draft of the story where Suzaku was the lead is the one that got rejected and passed over for… I think the station bought Ayakashi Ayashi or something like that instead. If I recall correctly, the studio’s rationale was that it would be too much like Gundam SEED and if they were going to buy something like that they’d just as well have a Gundam SEED sequel.

Many anime series focus on the character with the best special abilities.

From what I know of the first draft, Lelouch was pretty clearly meant to be a Char derivative and Geass was pretty much one of Sunrise’s many attempts to re-sell people First Gundam in a funny modern hat. Char was a shocking villain at the time of his creation because he was way cooler and awesomer and more obviously protagonist-like and “powered up” than Amuro-- but was still the villain and not the guy the camera was pointed at most of the time.

Apparently there have been so many copies of the Char/Amuro dynamic since First Gundam that all Sunrise had to do in order to really shock people was to take the Char-type character, make him moderately more marketable, and then declare him the main character! It helped that early on Lelouch was also pretty clearly inspired by Light Yagami and meant to be a little bit of a horrible person who would get comeuppance in the end, too.

In fact the flip-flopping convergence and divergence between Suzaku and Lelouch is actually very similar to Ryouhou and Kazuma in sCRYEd – another Sunrise series.

You know, I’m not totally sure Scryed was written by Sunrise instead of being a manga adaptation? The plot is certainly a very formulaic Jojo’s clone of the sort you see more in manga than anime, though I wouldn’t be surprised to find out Sunrise made up at least the ending themselves. That did have “Sunrise house writing” feel to it.

But seriously, more Geass, and involving Lelouch?! Lelouch had his time.

I believe Lelouch is still charting as the most popular anime character in Japan despite being dead for like a year! But Kira Yamato is still hanging around #2 despite not being a protagonist for around three years now, which might be enough to bring SEED back from the dead. Last I heard, 00’s manga spinoffs were getting canceled early in favor of new SEED Astray stuff…

Poor Gundam 00, I don’t think any of its characters ever charted higher than #3 despite it being traditional for any given year’s Gundam protagonist to chart at #1. And even then Tieria charted consistently higher than Setsuna and none of the female characters or villains charted consistently at all. That show just should’ve been made sometime in 1987, when people would’ve cared about a mecha anime interpretation of Foundation.

Hell, it’s worked for 30 years for Gundam, hasn’t it?

Hey, they made G Gundam that one year! That was Iron Leaguer with different names and factions, that’s kind of like originality!

I never watched Code Geass, but based on what I heard about it, it combined some really interesting ideas (such as the above) with wall-bangers (the worldbuilding; the Pizza Hut-sponsored mecha). Hearing from you guys that it shifted away from intricate tactics and the Real Robot feel reinforces my impression that it’s probably not my cup of tea. Still, I really like the antihero idea. I would have liked Gundam a lot more had it taken a LOGH-style approach to the universe and, say, focused on Char Aznable’s rise to power amidst the intrigue at the Zeon court.

I really hated the Code Geass character designs. Normally things like that don’t bother me, but in this case I found them aggressively annoying to look at.

The Pizza Hut thing never made it to the mecha, IIRC. Early on it was written in somewhat sanely as Lelouch having to order pizza constantly to feed C.C. while she was hidden in his room. As the story got more dramatic, though, the Pizza Hut references every few episodes got more insane and forced. American fans took to it since it was a recognizable brand, though, and I believe as the first season was wrapping up a bunch of my friends would get together and order Pizza Hut whenever a new episode was ready to watch.

The only part of the world-building in Geass that really pissed me off was the introduction of Sakuradite, because… look, if your military Real series is thinking about re-using the main setting conceit of goddamn Mazinger Z? It’s time to think of something else. Sakuradite also presaged a lot of generic mecha show garbage getting into Geass that didn’t need to be there, like the attempt at Mobile Armors and the numerous highly improbable upgrade machines.

Still, I really like the antihero idea. I would have liked Gundam a lot more had it taken a LOGH-style approach to the universe and, say, focused on Char Aznable’s rise to power amidst the intrigue at the Zeon court.

There’s a bunch of (sadly untranslated) Gundam video games and manga that focus on Char doing just that, and the Zeta Gundam sequel is loaded with fanservice for viewers more interested in Char’s goals. Amuro’s barely in Zeta Gundam since he wasn’t one of the more popular Gundam characters at the time it was created-- he didn’t really get his fan-following until Char’s Counterattack, when a lot of grown-up Gundam fans started really liking what the character was about.

Well, you have to admit that Char’s Counterattack was pretty damn awesome. I didn’t like Zeta as much as some, but I did like a lot of parts with Char, as well as the ending. It’s unfortunate that it led to the abysmal ZZ, though. I’ve been watching (painfully) through Turn A lately, but then I remind myself of how horrible ZZ was, and it’s sort of like breaking your finger to take your mind off of the bullet wound.

And if I’m sitting through a really, really bad Turn A episode, I think about G Gundam and then all the pain just goes away.

It’s by far probably my favorite part of Gundam and my favorite moment on the UC timeline, yeah. I will sing CCA’s praises all day long if you let me so I’d better not get onto the subject too much… I can say it makes me a lot more interested than I should be in the Unicorn Gundam anime project we’re supposed to be getting this winter.

I didn’t like Zeta as much as some, but I did like a lot of parts with Char, as well as the ending.

Interesting thing about the Z ending: the combat choreography there is by Yasuhiro Imagawa, who was hand-picked by Tomino to be the director for G Gundam once it was clear that Bandai was insisting on a wacky toyetic premise for it. The choreography for Z’s ending is so legendary that I think it was used essentially unaltered in Zeta III, even though most other major Zeta fights had their battle choreography “updated.”

It’s unfortunate that it led to the abysmal ZZ, though.

I’m currently working on a blog project to sort of chronicle the history of trends in mecha anime by looking at major series in chronological order. I haven’t decided yet, but either Z or ZZ was pretty much the death of the early 80’s Real movement and I don’t think we’ve ever really gotten a full flowering of that sort of mecha show since then. Some good stuff, sure, but nothing like how you had Macross and VOTOMS in the same year back in '83.

And if I’m sitting through a really, really bad Turn A episode, I think about G Gundam and then all the pain just goes away.

Yeah, Turn-A has some fucking abysmal individual episodes. At points it feels so much like amateur hour that I can’t believe Tomino oversaw production. Allegedly there’s good stuff in it if you tough it out, but good luck with that. It was eventually too much of a slog for me and I had just watched the compilation movies (which retain all of the Turn-X stuff).

Dude. Don’t hold out on us, what’s up? And yeah, the name Gundam Unicorn makes me throw up in my mouth a little, just like the Sunset (Sunrise, fuck who cares) OVAs. I am scared. Please tell me I shouldn’t be scared. Please. Oh god please.

But damn you a verifiable quantum of Gundam information. Yes, there have been some Turn A eps that have really impressed me, and, well, too many that really made me want to stop watching. I’ve hit ep28, and it’s def gotten better, but it was a series Tomino produced to make up for the X, G, blah fucking blah, that happened in his absence. He was depressed. I get it. But dude. This … is … GUNDAM! Honestly I actually enjoyed 00, mostly for the HD, and slightly less for the awesome tactics designed by their commander. Setsuna was utterly forgettable, but honestly, it feels weird that Lockon doesn’t top the charts in some way. I think, if they hadn’t killed Allelujah’s schizo other personality, he would have been a dream. By dream I mean, in a totally hetero way – Hallalujah was awesome.

Less AJ, more HJ. Yeah he makes an appearance in S2 a few times but dude. Get rid of of AJ. We need more HJ. Crazy eyes do it for me. Yeah.

Aha, thanks for the explanation of Code Geass & Gundam. Your mention of untranslated games reminds me of Gihren’s Ambition - now that would be cool to have in English. (I once went so far as to design a web-based strategy game that cast players as the four Zabi siblings, Revill, and Jamitov, and drew up unit stats, but never got further than that.)

Based on a quick Googling, would Sakuradite be an all-purpose miracle mineral like Valkyria Chronicles’ ragnite?

Unicorn Gundam… we’re supposed to get it this winter, it’s not clear at this writing if it will be a TV series or a film. I’m thinking TV series myself. It’s meant as a 30th anniversary project designed explicitly to please the die-hard, old-school Gundam fans who were generally too old to find SEED or 00 interesting. The Zeta Gundam movie audience, if that makes any sense.

In terms of production pedigree, Unicorn should be amazing (but I would’ve told you the same thing about 00 or SEED before either series was actually made). Gundam Unicorn will be directed by Kazuhiro Furuhashi and written by Yasuyuki Muto, both veterans of the excellent L’Chevalier d’Eon series. A Gundam series produced at Chevalier’s high standards of quality would be a welcome change from the franchise’s recent turn toward utter schlock.

The series or film is explicitly going to be adapting the Gundam Unicorn light novels written during the production of SEED and 00. The novels take place in UC 0096, three years after CCA, and concern a newly reformed Londo Bell hunting down remnants of the last Neo-Zeon movement (calling themselves “The Sleeved,” which is like… guys, I think everyone in space probably wears sleeves).

The main guy is an engineering student from the moon who fights a masked dickweed manipulating the Zeon for his own purposes. Very classic UC stuff. The series will even acknowledge Gundam’s shoujo roots by having artist Kumiko Takahashi adapt Yoshikazu Yasuhiko’s character designs from the light novels. Mechanical design team will include Hajime Katoki (!), Junya Ishigaki (!), and Nobuhiko Genba.

The problem with Unicorn is that a lot of things about the actual plot are pretty damned awful. There is, for instance, a highly distasteful female love interest/enemy character called Marida Cruz whose secret backstory reveals that she’s Puru Twelve (yes, one of Glemmy Toto’s). After the events of ZZ Gundam she was sold to a child prostitution ring and over the course of the next 7 years was raped and beaten and put through “forced abortions” so many times that her womb is broken and she cannot bear children.

This is not a plotline I want to see animated, ever, by anyone. To be fair, a lot of Gundam light novels include absolutely insane sex-related plots that animated versions never, ever acknowledge. But since Unicorn’s light novels predate the animation by so many years in this case, uh, the sexual insanity is all we have to go on.

Honestly I actually enjoyed 00, mostly for the HD, and slightly less for the awesome tactics designed by their commander.

I never thought much of the “good guy” tactics for 00 but I found many of the “bad guy” tactics really engaging and clever. In general 00 kind of had the problem that it would’ve been a better Real series had the main guy been Graham Acre and Setsuna been the villain he tragically needed to destroy. (I’m pretending Mister Bushido didn’t happen, because… I don’t like living in a world where it did, to be honest.)

The HD… my feelings are really mixed about it. On one hand, the particle effects animation was great, character animation was great even if the design work was sub-par. The mechanical animation… well, they were very nice drawings but the actual fight choreography was just appallingly lazy. You may need to turn the sound off to notice it, but there are a lot of major 00 fights where the robots actually move maybe 7 or 8 times in the course of 8-9 minutes of footage.

The direction does everything in its power - cuts to people moving in their cockpits, overlaid particle effects shots, use of BGM cues, cuts to other scenes entirely - to distract you from the basic fact that 00 machines tend to spend battles in static positions, being basically dragged around the screen until they get a burst of movement during key sequences. I can understanding that drawings at HD levels of detail might be hard to move around even on Gundam’s TV budget, but damn. I understand that early in production the Japanese fans got so angry about this that Sunrise formally reprimanded the entire production team for it.

Setsuna was utterly forgettable, but honestly, it feels weird that Lockon doesn’t top the charts in some way. I think, if they hadn’t killed Allelujah’s schizo other personality, he would have been a dream. By dream I mean, in a totally hetero way – Hallalujah was awesome.

Al/Hal was great and an utterly mismanaged character. He should’ve been the show’s standout. Instead they gave him nothing much to do for the show’s entire last… 26 episodes. Yeah.

With Lockon… what I understand of Lockon is that he was essentially mandated in by the show’s producers, who wanted a character like Mwu La Fraga around to appeal to a slightly older demographic. What seems to have happened here is that people who already liked Mwu La Fraga kept right on liking him and ignored 00 entirely, even after the producers insisted that Lockon get a girlfriend in the second season so he’d be more like Mwu.

It’s a little sad given that Mwu himself was forthrightly meant as an homage to Roy Fokker and no more-- it really shouldn’t have been difficult to come up with a similar character that was just as likable. I chalk it up to Seiji Mizushima not being used to the levels of interference a director experiences with Gundam and so not really having the energy to make the producer-mandated stuff feel interesting. Everything about 00 that is interesting is essentially a holdover from Mizushima’s original pitch.

That sounds about right from what I know of Valkyrie Chronicles. What drives me crazy about sakuradite, specifically, is that it’s a magic do-anything mineral that can only be found in Japan, mined from the base of Mt. Fuji.

The core conceit of Mazinger Z - made in 1972 - is that Mazinger cannot be defeated by Dr. Hell’s robot monsters because it is made of japanium, a magic do-anything mineral that can only be found in Japan, mined from the base of Mt. Fuji.

I don’t think it’s asking too much for a show’s unobtainium to have its own backstory, not what is quite literally some other show’s backstory.

Yeah, Sakuradite was basically a miracle mineral. It powered the later-episode mechas, as well as the more powerful earlier ones, and was used as a key element in the production of an incredibly powerful bomb employed by Lelouch’s brother near the end of the show (coincidentally designed by Lelouch’s former geeky classmate as revenge for the death of the princess – albeit accidentally when his Geass goes always-on – by Zero).

You can really compare it to any kind of mineral, anime or not, used as a power source or major component used in production of XX machine or XX weapon.

And thank god I wasn’t the only one who did a WTF when I found out that it could only be mined from Mt. Fuji (Mazinger Z references immediately popped into my head). Ragnite in Valkyria is a little different, in that it can be found in various places, which are sought after strategically by both sides to control the flow. With Valkyria, you can easily replace Ragnite with real-world oil 20 years from now, or Tiberium from Command & Conquer. In Geass, Sakuradite could only be found in Japan, hence the huge interest the Empire had in conquering and controlling the Japanese people. But, the reason for all that is that it allowed the show to focus, essentially, entirely on Japan and its peoples’ plight, because in the show it was more important than anything else. It’s really no different than Hollywood finding some way to focus entirely on America, because that’s where the target culture lies.

Somehow i feel dirty for thinking Gundam Seed was good (although the number of summary episodes or excessive replay shots does get annoying) now.

The deal with the summary episodes in SEED original-- according to Internet legend, anyway-- is that for a brief period during production, the TV network decided Gundam SEED was doing so well that they wanted 65 episodes of it… but the production team had only been asked to produce a standard-length run of episodes (around 50).

So while staffers tried to figure out how to rewrite the show to 65 episodes they also had to slow down the pace of the plot drastically while production was ongoing. The TV network also wanted a lot of recap because ratings were rising, which is unusual around the teens-twenties of a mecha show, and people tuning in would need to know what was going on.

The summary/rewrite period dragged on just long enough that it negatively impacted SEED’s ratings, which caused the TV network to decide that 50 episodes would be fine, which forced the production team to rewrite the story AGAIN while also keeping up with a weekly airing schedule-- since they’d been making changes to the last batch of episodes to accommodate a 65-episode schedule.

Basically, about 50% of what went wrong with Gundam SEED’s pacing can be traced back to the period when they were trying to rewrite their series outline while also producing more episodes. If you’ve noticed how a bunch of plot threads are abruptly dropped at the midpoint of the show and a bunch of others come out of nowhere, that’s IIRC the exact point at which they found out they wouldn’t be producing 65 episodes.

The replay shots are actually a very, very old technique used not to keep production costs down-- Sunrise threw ridiculous money at SEED-- but to deal with production speed issues. Individual anime episodes for a year-long series are produced on a grueling schedule even before you allow for horrible time-eating clusterfucks like extensive last-minute rewrites.

You saw a lot of this back in 70’s mecha shows when a loop of finished footage would be replayed several times in an episode essentially to make sure the episode’s running time was correct. Fans didn’t much mind since, hey, nobody had DVDs yet and seeing an impressive sequence repeated could be a treat. In SEED, what they tried to do to modernize the footage loop technique was edit them digitally so you’d at least get to see slightly different mecha moving around, if in the same patterns.

What’s funny is that if SEED had used more standard padding techniques like still shots or long slow pans of background drawings, nobody would’ve noticed. Instead fans got the impression that Fukuda was “trying to pull a fast one” with the replay shots since most people watching Gundam now have never seen a 70’s mecha show or, really, probably any anime old enough to be using footage loops to pad out its runtime.

What this all comes down to is that I don’t blame anyone for looking at SEED and seeing vestiges of a good show there. Whatever SEED was pitched as was probably a great show before the rewrite cycle started and production problems took their toll. Usually I tell disaffected SEED fans to go watch the Cyber Formula TV series and OAVs, since it’s pretty much the “good” version of SEED’s basic plot and visual style.

Any chance that was either a deliberate industry in-joke and/or based on Mt. Fuji’s cultural importance?