Well he literally did it with his first post, remember the dox part? He’s said that multiple times, in a topic about him misleading other people… he’s so afraid of being doxxed that he can’t stop posting, is that it. Does that make sense to you or do you think maybe he just brings it up for some other reason?
538 is evaluating their election polling; issue polling is different. It’s the way the question is phrased that makes it bullshit. The question shouldn’t be “Whose fault is it that families are being separated: the criminals or the government enforcing the law?” The question should be “Is it bad that many times more pre-teen children are being taken from their parents with no hope of being reunited under the new policy?”
Rasmussen is looking for a particular result here to market to their Republican clients.
So in Superman II, when the Kryptonians sent the baddies to the Phantom Zone, they shot them into space.
Imagine what would have happened if they instead just put them in a corner and allowed them to lecture the citizens of Krypton about how much of an echo chamber the planet had become.
Fun fact:
Quinnipiac University National Poll, June 18th: “American voters oppose 66-27 percent the policy of separating children and parents when families illegally cross the border into America.”
Another fun fact: The only flavor trolls can taste is cherry.
Some segment of the people can oppose separations while blaming the parents for putting them in that situation, which is how the polls would be consistent. But blaming the parents on this forum is racist, heartless, fascist, white supremacist, etc.
Jesus. Just fucking leave already.
I’m sorry, I can’t respond. Someone seems to have stuffed words in my mouth.
Not at all. The heartlessness, racism, and fascism are all connected with supporting or being indifferent to the change in policy causing the separations, especially with a full understanding of the cruel incompetence with which the policy was administered and the cynicism of the policy’s aims. You can blame the parents all you want.
Sure sounds like that would be blaming the feds, there.
The DEEP STATE.
Yeah, I realize that the 538 thing was specifically about election polling, but it’s what I quickly found about how untrustworthy Rassmussen is perceived to be, and I don’t see a reason to assume that answer is very different accross those domains.
I didn’t realize that link has the actual text of the survey in it! Here it is, for the record:
That first question is pretty fucked up. The second one I think is fine. The third one could be better, but it strikes me as considerably less biased than your suggestion. Your question includes no mention at all of there being, you know, a law that’s getting broken, while the question as written in the poll at least mentions that families are being separated (though the horrors of that could certainly be hit harder).
Maybe we need to define nazi’s better. To me it’s someone who has said that “nope, I can’t live with this other racial/religous group and they need to be driven out/exterminated.” And if you have friends/family/lovers in that group, or just a generalized respect for the inherent value of human beings, it’s difficult to look at that threat and say “Well, I guess I’m ok with it and shouldn’t act against it, as long they are not exterminating my loved ones right at this exact instant.”
Like, you can argue about whether tactically it’s a good idea to punch that threat, or how best to deal with that threat, but I don’t see how you can be fine with letting it just fester and grow.
😞🔫
I do think that question is much better: “As you may know, some families seeking asylum from their home country cross the U.S. border illegally and then request asylum. In an attempt to discourage this, the Trump administration has been prosecuting the parents immediately, which means separating parents from their children. Do you support or oppose this policy?”
And they have independents at 68% opposed, for the record, which is probably higher than I would have guessed, but lower than antlers seemed to be.
Classic push polling. You use the first question to set the tone according to the answer you want to get back.
I wonder what would the results be if the first question asked were whether people agreed with this statement instead: “The United States will not be a fascist state where the government uses its power to destroy families for committing minor misdemeanors?”
The Rasmussen poll is entirely missing the central point in the current debate: the Trump administration deliberately changed policy so that families with young children entering the country without authorization would have these children sent away when previously they would not; and they may well never see those children again. The first question is egregious push-polling; the third is less egregious, but by avoiding the central issue in any of their questions they make the whole poll bullshit.
Definitely a better question, although it simplifies the motivations a bit to just discouraging illegal entry for the purpose of making asylum claims. and this one is helpful too, since it focuses on more than just asylum:
Not aggressive enough or Acting appropriately combine for nearly half, 46%, with too aggressive at 50% and don’t care/NA the remainder.
And that is roughly in line with the Rassmussen poll, too:
A C+ rating isn’t exactly stellar. Also, I’m not sure exactly where 538’s rating there applies to their general work, or just political tracking polls.
However, in this case, it’s worth examining the actual methodology of the poll, and the wording of the questions asked.
The actual wording that was asked, was:
3* When families are arrested and separated after attempting to enter the United States illegally, who is more to blame – the parents for breaking the law or the federal government for enforcing the law?
This itself is a kind of loaded question, which itself contains the lie that the issue at hand is merely “enforcing the law”.
The reality is that the government isn’t at fault for enforcing the law. They are at fault for how they are choosing to enforce the law.
Unfortunately, there is no actual information about the position itself or it’s methodology, so it’s hard to really evaluate it further.
Trigger would be the best person to evaluate its merits.
Tom,
Thank you for your thoughtful explanation of the situation. You are, as always, a class act.
gman,
I’m glad to hear you won’t be posting anywhere else in P&R, but thanks for your offer to buy me lunch. Tom’s met you, and has really gone to bat for you all things considered, so I’ll turn the offer around and say if you’re ever in SF I’ll try to free up time and buy you a meal or a beer. I’ve found you to be very frustrating on this forum, but I’ve been friends with people with all sorts of crazy political opinions, and I think it’s important to try and see people as people.
That said:
As you’re acknowledging downthread, the U.S. Government has been applying it’s policy of splitting families to lawful asylum seekers who show up at the border, announce their presence, and surrender their passports to US officials. This has been reported for weeks, and has been roundly criticized by many publications that were once seen as “conservative”. See, e.g., “Suffer The Children” The Economist, June 2, 2018, page 27.
Months after this policy began, and weeks after bipartisan public pressure was brought on the administration, we receive an explanation for why we are running child concentration camps: “Some unknown percentage of asylum applicants are taking advantage of our broken system, which is broken because of our own internal problems. Therefore, we are separating children from their parents. There is literally no other possible solution. Also, the Bible wants us to, especially the part about honoring thy father and thy mother.”
Like, I haven’t even read the immigration thread because this policy is so clearly wrong and evil. Don’t go to bat for this. There are better hills to die on.