Again, there are THIRTEEN Muslim countries for which the penalty for atheism is death. How many Christian / Jewish / Buddhist counties carry that punishment? That’s right, none.
“Oh but Balasarius, the people don’t really believe that, it’s just a handful of government theologians pushing their agenda.”
Riiight.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
It’s testament to how good the discussion is on the other parts of the forum that I’m still here. People can be downright vicious in P&R to even the most benign of conservative thought. Vicious to the point where there are times I pull away from the entire forum because I find P&R so insulting.
To be pedantic, it’s apostacy that carries the death sentence, as in leaving the Muslim faith.
I will happily discuss this with you in person, and I think it would be a pretty informative discussion for both of us given how strongly we feel. But it’s not something I’m willing to get into here, online, as a P&R spectator sport, because I will probably end up saying things that a jerk would say. Suffice to say, I think we both agree that a religion of peace should not be feared or hated.
-Tom
Thanks for posting that bit, it’s one of my favorites. And while I myself chose to simply disengage from arguing with gman, and tried mightily to scroll past his walls of text, I must say I suspect that he was representative of “Guy #1” in Patton Oswalt’s bit. Also, I didn’t believe for a second his frequent claims that he really wanted to expand his knowledge and maybe be convinced of opposing views as a result of debate. If he’d just shown that he wanted to engage across more of the subforums, he might have been perceived as less of an agent provocateur.
Let me know when you find a religion of peace.
I fell into the trap of watching from TED videos the other day, simply because they were suggested in the youtube sidebar. Strangely, all of them kind of relate to the concept at hand of talking to an “enemy” and people leaving hate-groups.
Interestingly stuff.
This gman guy and his sock puppet accounts however, is not interesting stuff. It’s dull and tedious. Well, except for the fact that a single person has managed to completely unhinge the forum and force multiple people to leave, which is not only what he wants but something he actively enjoys. i.e. he won. I think it’s interesting that the people on the forum “let” him win in that manner and somehow it’s all the moderator’s fault.
“Disappointing” seems like a pretty good summary.
I’d actually flip that on its head and ask you to let me know when you find a religion of war. Pretty much any religion that has survived into the modern era preaches peace. But when men wage wars, they often appropriate religions to justify it.
-Tom
He was never having a discussion. Never. That’s the point. A discussion was the reason to engage with him. Sure, it didn’t work, but not because people didn’t try.
Is he really from Texas, this PhD friend? That the part I didn’t believe.
Texas has PhDs! There are dozens of us!
Well, not me specifically. But I know a guy who knows a guy who has a PhD.
Yes, exactly. I’ve had the good fortune to grow up overseas, work in an international business, and travel extensively. The cynic in me finds bad people everywhere, and the optimist finds good people everywhere. People are people the world over. Most of them want the same things: Starting with not to be dead, not to be starving, not to watch their children suffer, all the way up to seeing their kids go to good schools and grow up to be happy people. Some want more, and they find reasons why they ought to have more. Some of those want everything or, failing that, they want everyone else to have nothing, and they find reasons why they ought to have that, too.
I’ve said I’m an atheist I think, and very critical of both the obvious sins of major religions AND the empty way many people practice them. From the standpoint of doctrine, Islam seems no worse than any other. And it has to be said: I’ve met a lot of Muslims, in Morocco and Turkey and Tanzania and South Africa, and every single one of them was a nicer person than the average Southern Baptist I know.
Also, too: The morning call to prayer in an old city is hauntingly beautiful, one of the great simple experiences of life.
True but if you live too close to the Masjid/Mosque it can get a little old unless you’re an earlybird.
I used it in place of an alarm clock. If I could find a ringtone that had the call to prayer, I’d use it today. Though maybe my neighbors would think I’m a terrorist or something.
Haha. Were they recordings or was the muezzin “live” so to speak?
Usually recordings, I think. But in a city like Istanbul, you hear it start a block away, then another one starts a few blocks away, then another, and so on. It’s like a wave of sound, each one the same but each one unique. We loved it.
Strollen, I can’t do anything about Aceh wanting to impose Sharia law, but Muslims in the US do not agitate for the tenets of their faith to replace secular law. (And no, Dearborn did not vote to impose sharia law.) Evangelical Christians do - and with the added “bonus” that SCOTUS often rules in their favor - and that’s why they get ‘attacked.’ This is not to say or even imply that Islam is some progressive, egalitarian religion. It’s not. But as Timex often points out, accusing billions who follow it of axiomatically being prone to terrorism simply because they are Muslim isn’t any different from asserting that Jews are evil bankers. Despite my own personal animus toward religions, bigotry is worse.
trump has replaced Reagan for idolatry in the Republican party. Donald Trump. If that doesn’t mean we’re through the looking glass, I don’t know what is. Regardless of one’s political ideology, trump is by any objective measure a complete and total moron. Something is going on that elevates his status, and it’s not economic anxiety. Yeah, sure, there are some trump supporters who aren’t in the white racial grievance camp but the majority sure as hell are. There’s a reason why a large segment of the US electorate vote against their own economic interest. I don’t know why some have trouble coming to grips with that
Rational?! He’s a frigging tribalist! I’ve seen him admit to that fact on two separate occasions, even though I only skimmed his posts. Whatever ratio tribalists possess is funneled entirely into maintaining their irrational belief system. In his particular case, we’re talking about people who explain away or ignore anything about Trump being a Russian sock puppet because Hillary ‘Doomsday’ Clinton would have been so much worse.
There is no worthwhile conversation possible with tribalists for reasons I described here.
Gman was nothing more than a megaphone blaring out tribal propaganda that can be readily consumed elsewhere. No honest engagement, no chance of shifting viewpoints, no gaining insight, no chance of conversion. Just an endless spew of fallacious arguments, interspersed with whining about personal attacks and moving of goalposts, which effectively killed any potential for a worthwhile discussion.
Gman didn’t need to be banned for being a Trump supporter. He needed to be banned because he is a tribalist and thus added only negative value to the community. Plus banning him stopped all the idiots who insisted on engaging him despite it being glaringly obvious it was effort wasted.
Engagement with gman wasn’t for gman’s benefit. I’m tempted to say only an idiot would think it was, but that would be rude or insulting I guess.