Yes, though the attack kills the guard dog, his damage triggers back on the monster that killed him.
FFG have clarified this, though not released a card errata for it. But essentially:
I think it’s covered in the rules here
Nice! Yep, that’s the specific rule that applies.
Thanks, guys!
RIP, dog!
Yeah, the Guard Dog would lose a lot of its utility if it didn’t get to deal out that final damage reflection when it takes killing damage.
Nice find, Matt! I knew that was the way it worked, but wasn’t sure I’d be able to cite the rule.
Yeah, to echo Tom, that’s a really nice find. I can remember playing this spring with the dog and having a similar situation and reading that this was the way it worked on Arkham DB…but it’s great to have the actual in-print rule to cite for that.
One general timing rule that I’ve had to look up more times than I can remember is that if there are two abilities with the same trigger, you get to choose the order they’re applied in. So if “when an enemy attack deals damage to Guard Dog” on Guard Dog were to occur while a (hypothetical) “when an enemy attack deals damage to your ally” ability is in play, you could choose to resolve their effects in whichever order is more advantageous. It’s friendlier but messier than a game like Magic’s nested stack abstraction.
I got to finish Return to Midnight Masks this morning, and it was a lot of fun!
Calvin and Ursula both got their important assets out in the first few turns, so this game was much less of a nailbiter. Ursula also drew both of her upgraded Shortcut(2) cards in her opening hand, so after attaching them to some central locations they were able to zoom around the map very quickly. Calvin was able to stay at a comfortable 3/6 damage and horror for most of the game and still kill enemies and occasionally grab a clue as needed.
The Return To… changes were much more apparent here. I found several new location alternates, fought a different boss, and encountered two new cultists. The encounter deck is also a bit nastier in how it beefs up low-level cultists, but if I’m remembering correctly it doesn’t allow them to rack up doom as steadliy. I don’t think the changes made the encounter more difficult overall, just added more variety.
Alma Hill, in particular, was a fun new cultist. Ursula decided to push her luck and parley all alone with the dodgy historian. Big mistake. Cascading cultists and doom caused the agenda deck to advance and the boss to spawn at an inconvenient location. In the end, they were successful in defeating the boss, neutralizing three cultists, and resigning before midnight. I’m not sure what Return to the Devourer Below has in store, but with the 3 additional cultists and alternate Midnight Masks boss added by Return To…, I don’t know that this is as much of a success as it would be in the base campaign.
While I was on Etsy, I also bought some arrows that look just like the ones you’re using, dudeguy.
What are your colored dice doing? Red for damage tokens, blue for horror, what is the black? Resources?
I’m using three purple dice facing 1, 2, and 3 to track actions.
In other news, last night I had a long, esoteric dream about Arkham cards and game rules and trying to figure something out.
Nice! Those arrows were kinda pricey, but I did get tired of the marker-tipped toothpicks I was using before :)
The black die is for resources. I don’t currently track actions, only which investigators have finished their turn and which phase I’m in. Occasionally, that leads to errors but for the most part I can finish one turn before getting interrupted or forgetting what is going on.
How thematic!
RIP Roland Banks.
He had three chances to finish off the Ghoul Priest with one measly point of damage but drawing the -4, Skull, and Skull again just absolutely did not get the job done.
Oh, well. I get to start again! And the fun thing about boardgaming is that all of my accumulated knowledge on how to play carries over to the next round. Sweet!
Ouch!
Just double-checking, but are you aware that your investigator being defeated (running out of health or sanity) doesn’t usually mean the campaign is over? The campaign should have instructions for what happens in a scenario “if each investigator is defeated” and you just gain a starting damage or horror for the rest of the campaign (called taking trauma.) It isn’t a death sentence, because you can still heal the starting damage or horror once a scenario begins.
Yeah, this is not built as a “save and reload” kind of game. You’re supposed to roll with the setbacks; it’s part of the fun! Also, @rrmorton, try the next game with two investigators, assuming you’re not feeling overwhelmed. You lose so much in co-op games like this when you only play a single character.
I’ll have an updated post on Norman Withers and his deck shortly. I’ve got a really weird team going…
Thanks for the info! I semi-knew that.
This was very much a training-wheels game where I was just getting a feel for everything with one investigator so I was glad to have an excuse to start over and make better decisions. I’ll start a new game with two investigators next and even if they die, they’ll keep playing!
I recommend Daisy and Skids if you’re sticking to core set investigators. Daisy is a powerhouse support character with her 4 actions and the Encyclopedia card. Skids also gets 4 actions per round and with Leo de Luca can have 5.
Norman Withers, astronomer, has the power of prediction! By peering into the stars, he can read THE FUTURE! At least that’s the theming I’ve inferred from his unique ability to play with the top card of his deck face-up. It’s also the theming I’ve inferred from his expression:
That’s the face of a man who’s seen something…confusing? Surprising? Lovecraftian? Or is it just a swarm of rats? In addition to the power of prophecy, Norman can put the face-up card atop his deck into play at a -1 discount. Because when you see the future, you also get a coupon for it!
I’m kinda bummed I picked two heavily gimmick-based investigators, since I wanted a back-to-the-basics investigator. From my recent time with Eldritch Horror and Arkham Horror Third Edition, I was thinking Tommy Muldoon was just a basic Guardian, and that Norman was going to be the one with the funky gameplay tweak. But Tommy’s ally sacrifice mechanic feels like a brash visitor from further down the power curve, like one of Fantasy Flight’s classic lapses in tuning as they pile more content onto a property, as they try to wring more money from their decidedly non-Lovecraftian mythology (the only thing less Lovecraftian than a Fantasy Flight game is a Stuart Gordon movie!). So Tommy Muldoon’s ability is to recruit people to get them killed to supply his Magic Shotgun in a tightly scripted gameplay loop of defense feeding into offense. And stop me if you’ve heard this one, but it requires fishing for a single card. Cherchez le Becky.
And now Norman basically has an equally abberrant gimmick with his absurdly boosted hand size and his discount to play cards. That’s a seriously rules-busting trick, especially with the Harvey Winters deck I was using that positively floods his hand with cards. I’ve scaled that deck back a bit to add more practical tools, but he was still an absolute beast in my For Real playthrough.
What’s most funny is that the “Return To…” remake of The Gathering is based on draining cards from your hand! So Norman Withers, using his Harvey Winters deck, is basically shrugging off all the scenario scripting maluses. Oh no, a ghoul bit me and I have to randomly discard a card? Big whoop, I just drew an Encounter that’s going to make me discard cards for every point I fail this test? Oh look this Cellar variant is draining more cards, good thing I’ve got 12 in my hand! Turns out this deck is a direct counter to Return To The Gathering.
But I was glad to see the “Return To…” reworking of The Gathering. It turned it from a quick tutorial level into an actual challenge, mostly by just making it bigger and adding more monsters without adjusting the clock. So you have to walk farther and kill more stuff in the same amount of time. My two heavily gimmick-based investigators were pretty beat up by the time we finished, and Tommy Muldoon was one bad draw from being KO’ed by the Ghoul Priest and having to take a permanent horror.
But while Tommy leveraged his gimmick of sacrificing allies and rendering their corpses down to unholy shotgun ammo for Becky (thank you for your sacrifices, Tetsuo Mori, Madame Lebranche, Alice Luxley, and Beat Cop!), it was really Norman who saved the day with cards I didn’t even think he’d need.
So let’s take a look at the 15 cards in Norman’s deck (I usually start by just picking 15 cards and including a pair of each). Here are the “just in case he gets stuck fighting a monster” cards:
The Disc relic is mostly there so I have something for Norman’s accessory slot. Mind Over Matter is an old sawhorse for any Seeker, but Occult Investigation is tailor-made for the Harvey Winter’s deck (which is why there’s a picture of Harvey on the card). This card, which you power up by discarding cards from your hand, saved Tommy Muldoon’s bacon when he was overwhelmed by ghouls. It was also the killing blow against the Ghoul Priest.
These cards are to make sure Norman has a large hand of cards:
Laboratory Assistant and Arcane Enlightenment (a.k.a. Wall Mounted Flatscreen TV) increase Norman’s hand size. Preposterous Sketches and Feed the Mind supply cards. Celaeno Fragments boosts Norman’s stats based on the number of cards he’s holding. I took out some of the other Harvey Winters cards in favor of more widely useful Seeker cards like these:
The Cryptic Writings might come out since I never really needed resources. Norman’s Lore is already 5, so the Magnifying Glass might be overkill. But I do love those cheap Fast cards. Here are the last few cards to round out his deck and give him plenty of tomes:
The tomes let Norman take advantage of the extra capacity from Arcane Enlightenment. Here’s how Norman looked by the end of The Gathering:
You can check my work if you like, but all those cards are legally slotted. Insane, right? Note the face-up Disc of Itzamna next to his character card is Norman’s draw deck. The face-up card isn’t part of his hand, but it can be played at a -1 resource discount. He has no discard because he actually ran through his entire deck (that’s why there’s a horror on the Research Assistant). And look at all the resources left over, ready to be pumped into Hyperawareness if needed. It basically gives Norman a free evade if he needs it.
So we got through Return To The Gathering without any deaths. We scraped together five victory points, two from 1-point ghouls, two from the Ghoul Priest, and one from clearing a VP location. We opted to keep the house, because why would you just burn down your own house on account of a few interdimensional portals to an underground labyrinth of charnel horrors? I mean, they can probably just put up one of those big tents around the house and fumigate it for a weekend. That should take care of charnel horrors as well as ants, roaches, and spiders!
On to shopping for upgraded cards, and then some Midnight Masks! How is everyone else doing?
Noooo, I just realized I hadn’t put basic weaknesses in my decks. I just played through Return To The Gathering with illegal decks. :(
Do over!
I feel better about my chances of catching up. :)
I feel so dumb, too, for how long I pored over these decks. But that’s just part of getting back into a game: forgetting a basic rule and realizing only after it’s too late!
