Avengers: Endgame (2019)


Have you seen this? http://renegadecinema.com/10235/superman-saves-suicidal-girl

Superman is a god. But he’s by far the most interesting when he solves problems not with his fists, but with his intellect and his heart. The problem of course, is that any modern day movie audience would expect, well, the shit we saw in Man of Steel.

My favorite Superman movie is Superman Returns with Brandon Routhe. It wasn’t perfect, but it was pretty good. The scene when he flies up to low orbit and just listens was great.

Superman: Red Son is also fantastic. I keep hoping they’ll make an animated version of it. While looking into it tonight, I stumbled across a crude motion-comic “TV series” they made of it back in 2009. Looks like YouTube has all the (short) episodes.


Has there been a version of Superman where they keep his core good nature and emphasise the darker aspects of human society and power structures? Like legitimate governments trying to exploit his power through various means. Or does the entire world around Superman have to be sort of bright and sunny?


Miller’s Dark Knight Returns almost played with this, but he was too pessimistic. The US basically militarizes the Good Ol Farm Boy Supes against other masks, preying on his trust of his country. But he’s largely played as an unthinking tool of the state by the time of the comics comes around, IIRC, so the fall is sort of complete by that stage.


Yeah I am thinking about Cap’s reaction to the direction Shield was taking in Winter Soldier. Though they kind of had an easy out there by having Shield corrupted by Hydra, rather than just normal human corruption and empire-building. It might be interesting to see a movie where there is a lot of conflict between Truth and Justice on one hand and the “American way” on the other.

Edit: Or maybe truth and justice isn’t what he thinks it is at the start.


I think the other thing that makes Cap so unique is that when it comes right down to it, he’s just a man. Yes, he’s been empowered to the height of human endurance by the super soldier serum, but bullets can kill him. When the chips are down, he always gives that little bit of extra via his humanity and the will to win that embodies what the US used to stand for. He’s probably even more interesting today given how much our institutions have eroded and been corrupted by people who don’t care about others. Cap always cares about everyone. He’s a true freedom fighter. That’s at the root of the disagreement with Stark and the Sokovia Accords in Civil War. He thinks Stark wants them to sacrifice freedom.

It’s actually just what you want @MikeJ… the battle between truth and justice and the American way.

People should really watch his origin movie again or for the first time if they haven’t. It’s all there. He’s the little guy fighting against the bullies.


In the first Avengers movie he has that same reaction when he learns that Shield under Fury is using the stone to build weapons.


I hadn’t because I don’t really read comics or graphic novels. It’s touching and well written, but it doesn’t really address what I don’t like about superman. But again, I didn’t Captain America either, even though he was shown with more flaws the Superman in the comics. MCU changed that. That’s all I am getting at. These characters were just not relatable to me, in anyway, as they are presented i the comics. Maybe the comic book readers who like them don’t really understand that, but that’s what it is.

Superman, I’ve seen all the movies, and I am not strongly attached to any of them. I don’t dislike them but they aren’t lasting. I give it a try every time though, and I saw Super Returns in theater.

I’ve been told the animation series might be worthwhile. I own one of the Batman ones and it’s pretty good.

I am just saying Marel brought to life some pretty unusual, and to me, boring characters and they’ve been working hard for years to make a lot of people, familiar or not familiar with the material, along for the ride, and it largely works.


Hmm, did you not like the characters because you don’t read graphic novels, or don’t like graphic novels because you didn’t like the characters? How about now? Folks are saying the movies are in the spirit of the comics, so maybe since you like the characters now because of the teamwork you would like the characters in the comics too? As long as they are on the same team?

Or maybe you just don’t like comics? But how could you feel one way or another about the characters if you never read about them? Unless…

Was there a Captain America TV show back in the day?


I dunno I think Marvel was right to change Thanos from his comics version…


I think you’re asking a lot of questions here, but not really understanding what I’ve said. I used to read comics, a long time ago. The only ones I found worthwhile were the X-Men ones which I read for maybe a year or so. I’ve been exposed to these characters for a long time, almost as long as I’ve been able to read. We used play a Marvel based RPG which had like, a lot of them i there, when I was younger too. I couldn’t even list them all. Heck I even read a few tied to X-men, X-force and some other team.

Superman, Captain America, Batman,yet another Spideman(i haven’t even seen all those movies that’s how sick of him I became)… they’ve been around a long time. What makes you think that such a huge group that is currently enjoying and following the MCU movies hadn’t been exposed to them before. Okay, now assuming that’s that case, what’s different? I am trying explain there is a difference, but I can’t really make anyone believe it if they really don’t want to… but I am telling this run of movies, it’s drawn a very large and diverse audience and kept them, adding to that group, for years. Most previous attempts weren’t as successful.


As @ArmandoPenblade says, Dark Knight Returns is probably the story that comes closest and it’s pretty brilliant if you can get past the Miller’isms. BvS basically borrows the idea of DKR, but without taking any of the narrative structure that makes the concept work in the comics. In the comics, Superman has been manipulated into becoming a government enforcer and that gradually builds up to the final fight, since Batman is the ultimate vigilante. The climactic fight not only makes sense; in the way the story builds up, it seems inevitable. The rationale for the fight in BvS on the other hand… it’s not just dumb, it’s an insult to the intelligence of the viewers.

I think Balasarius hits on the versions of Superman that I’ve found interesting: Superman is a god, but what makes him interesting is his humanity, and how he resolves that conflict. But that version of Superman has never hit the screen. And - much like Cap and Thor (who also shares many characteristics with Big Blue), he probably works a lot better together with other characters than on his own. Sad that the first time they try to put him together with other DC characters, they mess it up so badly as they did in BvS.

Though returning to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I agree with Nesrie - it’s important keep reminding oneself that the people who put it together are an amazingly talented bunch. Because it seems so effortless, it’s can sometimes be difficult to remember that creating such an amazing run of movies over so many years has to be anything but easy. If it was easy, the DC Universe wouldn’t be struggling as badly as it is, the X-Men movies wouldn’t be such an incoherent mess, and Star Wars stories wouldn’t be on a temporary hiatus. The MCU really is an incredibly movie-making feat.


You really have to go back to the original Star Wars trilogy to find something as successful in the mainstream. I mean, Star Wars had an animal as a main character and everyone accepted it, but the best Chewie ever got was an emotional hug and series of barks with Han in a dungeon. Rocket Raccoon gets lots of dialogue, a character arc spanning several films, and he gets to strut behind Cap and Thor. Like, he’s the #3 Avenger now. A raccoon.

EDIT: #4! Widow is in front of him.