Uh yeah I meant to not include the part about the third strike for the batter in this instance. Essentially however it’s all about the ball not getting retained properly by the catcher no matter what happens. The runners are the ones with the choice to advance since they earned that choice, not the batter.
— Alan
Nice. Can you show me that in the rule book champ?
Sure, Chipper.
"In baseball, a catcher is charged with a passed ball when he fails to hold or control a legally pitched ball which should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance or score.
A closely related statistic is the wild pitch. As with many baseball statistics, whether a pitch that gets away from a catcher is a passed ball or wild pitch is at the discretion of the official scorer. The benefit of the doubt is given to the catcher if there is uncertainty, therefore most of these situations are scored as wild pitches.
A run that scores because of a passed ball is not scored as an earned run."
From MLB. Furthermore:
6.08
The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when_ (a) Four “balls” have been called by the umpire; A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game. If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed. (b) He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (1) The ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (2) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball; If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched. APPROVED RULING: When the batter is touched by a pitched ball which does not entitle him to first base, the ball is dead and no runner may advance. (c) The catcher or any fielder interferes with him. If a play follows the interference, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire that he elects to decline the interference penalty and accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, the play proceeds without reference to the interference. If catcher’s interference is called with a play in progress the umpire will allow the play to continue because the manager may elect to take the play. If the batter runner missed first base, or a runner misses his next base, he shall be considered as having reached the base, as stated in Note of Rule 7.04 (d). Examples of plays the manager might elect to take: 1. Runner on third, one out, batter hits fly ball to the outfield on which the runner scores but catcher’s interference was called. The offensive manager may elect to take the run and have batter called out or have runner remain at third and batter awarded first base. 2. Runner on second base. Catcher interferes with batter as he bunts ball fairly sending runner to third base. The manager may rather have runner on third base with an out on the play than have runners on second and first. In situations where the manager wants the “interference” penalty to apply, the following interpretation shall be made of 6.08 (c): If the catcher (or any fielder) interferes with the batter, the batter is awarded first base. If, on such interference a runner is trying to score by a steal or squeeze from third base, the ball is dead and the runner on third scores and batter is awarded first base. If the catcher interferes with the batter with no runners trying to score from third on a squeeze or steal, then the ball is dead, batter is awarded first base and runners who are forced to advance, do advance. Runners not attempting to steal or not forced to advance remain on the base they occupied at the time of the interference. If the catcher interferes with the batter before the pitcher delivers the ball, it shall not be considered interference on the batter under Rule 6.08 (c). In such cases, the umpire shall call “Time” and the pitcher and batter start over from “scratch.” (d) A fair ball touches an umpire or a runner on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball touches an umpire after having passed a fielder other than the pitcher, or having touched a fielder, including the pitcher, the ball is in play.6.09
The batter becomes a runner when_ (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out; When a batter becomes a base runner on a third strike not caught by the catcher and starts for the dugout, or his position, and then realizes his situation and attempts then to reach first base, he is not out unless he or first base is tagged before he reaches first base. If, however, he actually reaches the dugout or dugout steps, he may not then attempt to go to first base and shall be out. (c) A fair ball, after having passed a fielder other than the pitcher, or after having been touched by a fielder, including the pitcher, shall touch an umpire or runner on fair territory; (d) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance from home base of 250 feet or more. Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally. A fair fly ball that passes out of the playing field at a point less than 250 feet from home base shall entitle the batter to advance to second base only; (e) A fair ball, after touching the ground, bounds into the stands, or passes through, over or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to advance two bases; (f) Any fair ball which, either before or after touching the ground, passes through or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through any opening in the fence or scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, or which sticks in a fence or scoreboard, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to two bases; (g) Any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases; (h) Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a home run. However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only.
He can walk, run, flip, cartwheel and skip.
Isn’t this from Wikipedia? Is Wikipedia the new rule book, chief?
I guess you put that up there without a link because, like me, you couldn’t find any mention of a “passed ball” in the rule book. If there is something about “passed ball” in the block of text you quoted from MLB, I can’t seem to find it.
Maybe you ought to stress one more time how a passed ball is for the offical scorer, not the umpire. :)
Well let’s get something straight:
This is true the passed ball or wild pitch is not for the umpire to decide - both are balls.
6.09(b) provides the situation when a third strike is called but not caught.
I can’t find the rule regarding advancement on balls not caught by the catcher but they are “in play” in that regard with exception to the batter, unless it is fourth ball/third strike. In the case of a fourth ball it’s a dead-ball advancement anyway. I’m sure it’s in 7.* someplace.
Officially passed ball and wild pitch are actual stats (rule 10.*)
— Alan
The initial point, that a passed ball is NOT an umpire’s call, and that a batter may not take first on a passed ball unless it is ball four or a dropped strike three still stands.
The wiki definition is from an MLB FAQ.
Well except for the fact that the passed ball is irrelevant to the batter. It doesn’t matter what kind of ball it is, if the batter doesn’t make contact with the ball he may not take first unless it is ball four or a dropped strike three. The only thing that matters is if the catcher gets the ball in the mitt after it is thrown. Again, in that instance.
— Alan
…which is the point I’ve been trying to make to SC this entire thread.
Hold hands with a girl.
I thought holding hands was first base! You see now why we need clearer rules triggercut? I have to go back now and recalculate all my “stats.”
What the hell kind of middle school did you folks go to where holding hands is first base? Man, holding hands is like, I dunno, the on-deck circle.
Well except for the fact that the passed ball is irrelevant to the batter. It doesn’t matter what kind of ball it is, if the batter doesn’t make contact with the ball he may not take first unless it is ball four or a dropped strike three. The only thing that matters is if the catcher gets the ball in the mitt after it is thrown. Again, in that instance.
— Alan
Ok, I get it. Well, so much for the old axiom, “If it isn’t written, it doesn’t exist.” What the MLB needs is a rule that says if it’s not in the rule book, you shouldn’t even try it.
For instance, is there a rule that discusses what to do if the batter races up to first base should the catcher drops the ball on a pitch other than strike three? Someone ought to try it out, see what happens.
Steve Canyon, “Taking baseball where no man has gone before”
if the batter doesn’t make contact with the ball he may not take first unless it is ball four or a dropped strike three
Ah, crap! Is that in the rule book? I guess I’m out of bounds then.
What I meant above was the fact that they don’t specifically deny the passed ball rule for pitches other than strike three.
It’s a closed rule rather than an open rule, meant so that the hitter can only do certain things in that situation, rather than creating a rule to apply to a certain situation and leaving the rest open (to interpretation).
Specifically:
6.09
The batter becomes a runner when_ (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out; When a batter becomes a base runner on a third strike not caught by the catcher and starts for the dugout, or his position, and then realizes his situation and attempts then to reach first base, he is not out unless he or first base is tagged before he reaches first base. If, however, he actually reaches the dugout or dugout steps, he may not then attempt to go to first base and shall be out.
— Alan
And I always thought using tongues was first base.
Dammit this is difficult. Are there this many rules to rounders?
…he is not out unless he or first base is tagged before he reaches first base. If, however, he actually reaches the dugout or dugout steps, he may not then attempt to go to first base and shall be out.
Cool - I want to see a batter trot back to the dugout, then one step before he hits the stairs, bolt for first…
AJ Pierzynski was fairly close…