Battle ready swords

Oh yeah i’ve done that too, not with my beloved Bastard Sword, but with old military sabers. A friend used to have some at his family house and we’d get wasted during parties and, being both reasonably capable with swords, have at each other. The sparks would fly, the girls would scream and the swords would collect notches and dings. Luckily nothing ever went wrong (quite a miracle in hindsight) and my friend was cool about his family heirlooms being used like that. Fun times (and i seem to remember ManOwar was often playing in the background).

And that is one lovely looking blade, Valhalla indeed! (or possibly Folkvangar if you caught Freyja’s eye)

We had dice :(

Dang, I stop paying attention to this thread for a week and I miss a cool discussion on metallurgy. Shucks.

A couple things on “Damascus Steel”. The term can actually mean a few different things.

First, it can refer to the Persian steel that was very popular at the time, as the Wikipedia article notes. Blades made from this material were cool and really interesting-looking, and for a while “Damascus Steel” was sort of a watchword for quality… and every Tom, Dick and Hrothgar would claim to be using Damascus steel in their weapons, regardless of where it came from. Since the Vikings’ own metal-refining skills were generally lacking (as opposed to their considerable metal forging/finishing skills), they imported almost all their weapons-grade stuff from the Middle East via the Volga trade route… so every Viking armorer claimed to be using “Damascus” steel when in fact most of it was just relatively high-quality crucible steel from somewhere in the Middle East… not necessarily Persia.

Second, as Zak noted above, the artisans in Damascus actually made weapons in addition to acting as a trade hub for refined steel. So sometimes, a “Damascus steel” weapon can refer to one actually made in Damascus… but if we’re talking about European weapons, that’s almost never the case.

Thirdly, the practice of “forge-welding” several rods of steel braided together was sometimes called “damascene steel” forging. These rods were typically different alloys and when hammered and folded together, they would create the cool interference patterns in the metal. Katanas are technically made using this practice. The proper-noun Damascus steel described above was often delivered with ingots made using damascene techniques, so sometimes any steel using the forge-welding technique was called “Damascus steel” regardless of where the actual steel came from. This can cause confusion, as the practice long out-lived the Damascus weapon-forging tradition, and you get French swords forged with Spanish steel in the 1300s that are called “Damascus blades”.

Finally, “damascening” is the process of combining or inlaying different metals or alloys together… but today we almost exclusively use the term to refer to inlaying of precious metals into a darker metal. For swords, this meant inlaying gold or silver wire into the blades, then heating and hammering in the design before finishing. Because the art of damascene was extremely popular with the Vikings and Rus, there tends to be a lot of confusion between a weapon made (or allegedly made) from Damascus steel, and one that has a damascene pattern of gold or silver somewhere in the shaft. Folks see a (largely ornamental) Viking sword in a museum or book that mentions the “damascene” pattern in the blade, and they assume that means Damascus steel when in fact it just means the cool gold inlay.

Of course, you could always have a blade made with Damascus steel forged in Damascus using damascene forge-welding techniques and then later damascened with gold and silver. That would be the ultimate Damascus Steel weapon!

Aha…and now the Varangian Guard and middle eastern connections with the Norse make a bit more sense, it is entirely possible the ‘vikings’ learned techniques from that contact, although i do not know how the dates all match up for that.

And thanks for your input on the details of metal. I was once going to be a ‘sword smith’ (at the tender age of 17), but sadly all the local blacksmiths had stopped taking apprentices and the closest i could have got was to buy up the towns old Goal (‘jail’) stock of armourers tools from the smith now in charge of it. Sadly i didn’t have the £3,000 he wanted or means of transport.

Some of you guys may really enjoy Secrets of the Viking Sword, which was originally aired on Nova and is available on Netflix. It’s actually very, very cool. My next sword is definitely going to be of Viking design.

Okay, so my Darksword Armory Two-Handed Norman re-arrived a few days ago with the corrected blade and much sharper than the last blade. It’s also heavier, so those big, twirling swings really wreak some havoc on poor, unsuspecting milk jugs and OJ containers. I took some pictures of the sword and will paste them here - sorry about the lighting, I should really have waited until there was some natural light to take them by, but I was too eager. :)

As to my original post, I can say the quality from Darksword is outstanding and will order from them in the future, should funds become available. Just incredible stuff there, I can find three other swords I would just love to have. The big problem I have now is where to display it? I don’t want to keep it in the sheath, and if I have it hanging on the wall I can set up a calendar task once a month to remind me to oil it and keep it nice. I may just temporarily stick up a few nails and rest it on them, maybe wrap them in foam first or something. I think it will end up looking nice, if a little dangerous. :) Maybe I’ll spring for a sword display case…

Buy a baldric and carry it to work every day.

Glad to see that the straightened everything out for you. Grats.

Very, very nice. Looks the business and glad you got it all sorted out.

I do keep mine in it’s sheath, but that is mostly so i don’t have to keep oiling it, the lining of the sheath is sheep’s wool and the natural oil in that is supposedly a good thing, no rust issues in over twenty years etc. I agree if you go the nail on wall route to put something between the metal of the nails and the metal of the blade, foam would need to be pretty firm/dense so as to stop the weight of the blade + sharpness slowly cutting through it. I’d go for leather strips over any foam, just to be sure.

This is apropos of nothing, but the friend I referenced upthread who is big into Medieval sword fighting just posted on our private message board a cool description of his most recent tournament, and then followed up with a lengthy (but even more cool) description of the differences between swords, and I thought it would be interesting to you guys:


Yes laddies, I’m back from Texas. Why was I there you ask (go ahead, ask)? I participated in the Purpleheart Armory Open, which is the largest historical fencing tournament in the Southwest. It was my first time competing in the open steel longsword category. Last year at Longpoint, I participated in the synthetic pool, which is the beginner’s pool. But I made the elimination round in that event, when disqualified me for novice status (even if I’d wanted to enter).

So this was my first time in the deep end of the pool, so to speak. And it went about as well as I’d expected–I got my head handed to me. Lost every bout in my pool. There were varying degrees of loss, from close to complete beatings. But I expected this as I was now in a totally different, more competent and aggressive pool of fencers. I am, in fact, covered with bruises. Most notably a very large purple one on my upper left arm and a bullseye-shaped bruise on my right bicep from a direct thrust (the upper arms happen to also be the least armored part of my kit). And some bruises on my left hand that got THROUGH the heavy gauntlets I was wearing due to sheer kinetic energy. (Note to self, buy heavier gauntlets).

But despite the beatings, I learned a lot and got good feedback. This event was really a litmus test for Longpoint in July, where I’ll be competing in steel longsword (as well as rapier and sword and buckler) again. So now I know what I need to work on. I also had some one on one time with a very cool rapier coach and learned some very sweet moves with the old rapier and dagger.

And being a bunch of historical fencers, there was much drinking after the event. On Saturday we piled into school buses (the event is held in the gym of a Lutheran high school in north Houston) and drove out of town to a place called Newman’s Castle. But unlike the bus trips of our youth, this was soaked in booze. A group of fencers from Louisiana had some wicked good (and very potent) home made mead that they kindly shared with the bus. Newman’s Castle is a castle, complete with moat and treadmill-powered drawbridge. It has a great hall and guest rooms (they’re adding more). So there was much feasting (two whole pigs each surrounded by a half dozen or so roast chickens) and of course lots of drinking. Later there was fully armored combat in the muddy courtyard (it had been raining) for our entertainment. On Sunday after the event, we decanted to a bar called Mongoose Versus Cobra in a very hip part of Houston near downtown. Several of the event’s participants were also staff/managers at the bar (which also kindly provided much of the liquor for the event), which made it relatively easy to take over the bar. Some observations. Being covered with bruises is a conversation starter. Also there was fencing on the bar’s long, benchlike tables. Much fun.

So all in all, it was a great experience. Learned some important things I hope to apply in a few months and understand what areas I need to work on. Also met and hung out with (and got beaten up by) some very cool people.


OK, let’s try this again.

The longsword is a primarily two-handed weapon used from the high middle ages to the early Renaissance (roughly 1350ish to the first half of the 1500s). It can also be used one-handed, hence the English term “bastard” sword. However, in German and Italian fighting traditions (the ones almost everyone uses because that’s where the surviving manuals come from), it is mostly used two-handed. Designs also changed over time and region with some handles only being able to accomodate a hand and a half (the half bit usually means the non-primary hand is gripping the pommel) to full two-handed grips. Later longswords also got very pointy (as did single-handed swords) for getting into the edges and cracks in plate mail.

Although they are a mainly two-handed weapon, they are not a true two-handed sword. Longsword blades are only slightly longer than single handed swords. If you stood a longsword point down, the pommel should come up to roughly around your sternum. A true two-hander usually has a roughly four-foot long blade and the pommel should come up to your chin. (Here’s another historical note. Back in the day, when you had a sword made, it’s length was usually proportional to your height. But all bets were off if you passed it on to your kids.)

Longswords were mainly a knight’s weapon (or well-off man at arms). Interestingly enough, in the late 1500s through the early 1600s, they became more of a sport weapon (the sparring swords we use are based on Renaissance sparring/training longsword designs).

Your standard one-handed sword had many forms across time in Europe, but they were commonly known as arming or side swords (because you wore it at your side). Bucklers are small one-handed shields. Sword and buckler fighting is a very long tradition in Europe. The oldest surviving fencing manual that we know of (from the 14th century) is a sword and buckler manual. A buckler is a small shield anywhere from six to twelve inches across. They could be made of metal, wood or leather (or a combination of all three–depending on your budget).

Bucklers were popular because they were handy. You could hang one off your belt or your sword and walk around town with it, unlike a full shield. They were a kind of everyman’s weapon, but they were used widely by nobility and commoners. You can stop a sword blow with a buckler by itself, but they were always intended to work in conjunction with a sword. The buckler is mainly there to protect your sword hand. In unarmored (and even in fully armored) fighting, a blow to the hand or fingers is going to end a fight fast. In fact, some fencing masters condoned hand sniping as a quick way to end a fight. So with a buckler, when you swing your sword at an opponent, the hand with the shield covers the sword hand. When you parry, you parry with the sword AND the buckler–usually to trap/bind the opponent’s blade so you can hit him back safely. You can also punch someone with a buckler.

Archers and soldiers like pikemen and later early musketeers/matchlock men would carry swords and bucklers as backup weapons. They were most commonly used in civil circumstances–as personal protection when traveling or going about town. Again, they didn’t get in the way like a full shield would and you could go about your business with one hanging from your sword belt. They are also handier than full shields when you’re in a confined space or an alley. Historical note: Shakespeare coined the term “swashbuckler.” It’s a derogatory term for armed young toughs strutting around looking for a fight.

Rapiers are (mainly) civilian dueling/defense weapons that originated in the mid-1500s and were in use in places like Spain until the late 1700s. They were ultimately replaced by small swords for a number of reasons, but not necessarily because the small sword was a better weapon–but I digress and that’s the subject of another post). So rapiers have long, thin blades. Those swords you see in Three Musketeers movies–those are rapiers. The blades are optimized for stabbing, but you can still give a nasty cut with most rapier blades. The guards are what is referred to as “complex guards”–lots of swirls of metal to protect the hand. Once complex guards showed up, bucklers started to fade from use because the guard did the same job of protecting the hand. That and you could always use a dagger to parry with (rapier and dagger fighting is a blast–but that’s another post too).

I say they were primarily civilian weapons because they were mostly used for self-defense and dueling. But they are a type of cut-and-thrust sword and military versions would have slightly heavier blades but still perform many of the same functions. Anyway, this was the primary type of personal weapon in the 16th and 17th centuries. They were also very blingy, and if you had the bucks you’d strut around with a really fancy, decorated sword (lots of fine, clever metalwork on the guard).

So that, in a nutshell is the difference between a longsword, sword and buckler and a rapier.

To close out this post and to demonstrate the physicality of historical European fencing, I’m posting a link to a highlight reel of my fencing school’s participation at last year’s Longpoint tournament up in Ellicot City. You won’t see any rapier or sword and buckler (they didn’t run those tournaments last year, but they will this year) but you’ll see cutting (as in cutting things with sharp swords), wrestling (because its used in grappling and it was a common sport in medieval Europe), messer fighting (a messer is a type of one-handed German sword) and lots and lots of longsword fighting. I’m in the video for about three seconds somewhere about the 3:50 mark. My fencing club/school are all the folks in the blue jackets. Enjoy!

Fascinating read and great video. Thanks, TW.

Yeah, thanks for re-posting that here.

Yeah, thanks for re-posting that here. It’s amazing how much more violent a real sword-fight appears, compared to choreographed movie scenes. Fast, deadly, skillful.

Seems kind of crazy for the refs not to be wearing at least face masks.

That was great, thanks for sharing!!

I love the whole historical digging/reverse-engineering thing. Despite the obvious difficulty of deciphering the old manuals, there are some solid results (like the admixture of wrestling with everything), and it’s just really clear that the European MA were at one time as fully intricate and comprehensive as the Asian MA were (we were just lucky to catch Asian MA at the tail end of being as obsolete as European MA due to guns - and I’m sure cross-training has been useful in the reconstruction).

Here’s an interesting video of a guy who’s been digging into old archery techniques to see if some of it can be reconstructed or reverse-engineered.

I’ve seen that before, it’s incredible stuff.

That’s an amazing video. The comments are amazing for another reason–but then, it’s YouTube, go figure.

Yeah, Lars gets a little too excited about his trick. It’s impressive for speed, but he’s not really doing anything interesting in the power or accuracy realm. Do three arrows pulled at 25# with questionable placement beat one well-placed with 50# behind it?

I dunno, seems he has some degree of accuracy (though we can’t be sure how many takes were needed on each of those examples). There was also one sequence where his shot arrows were demonstrated to have little issue penetrating chain-mail, to likely debilitating effect.

Look at all 'dem fancy swords.

If I was going to splurge for one of those, I’d probably go for a cavalry saber. Which is also the most fun form of fencing as far as I’m concerned.