Yasser Arafat is apparently on the brink of driving out another prime minister because the PM wants to be able to implement the road map and lead Palestinians to peace:
I know there have been, shall we say, some rather strenuous disagreements on this forum regarding whether the Palestinian population as a whole bears some responsibility for all the terrorists that come from their ranks. Do the people who think “Palestinians can’t do anything about Palestinian terrorists” also think that the Palestinians aren’t responsible for Arafat and his policies? I’m not trying to be an asshole, I’m genuinely curious.
It’s an interesting question, and one that relates directly to the “chicken/egg” nature of the Israel/Palestine problem. Palestinians back people like Arafat because Israel occupies them, denies them the ability to leave their camps/villages, go to work, live normal lives, etc. Of course, the REASON Israel denies Palestinians the ability to live their lives is because they’re trying to stop random Palestinians from blowing them up. Neither side is willing to give an inch until the other does, meaning that neither side ever gives an inch. It’s why “they’re right - no, no, THEY’re right” analysis of the situation accomplish nothing. They’re both locked in an intractable stalemate, and until one side finally breaks in and starts giving concessions, the other side won’t budge.
Most reasonable people call on Israel to be the first one to give concessions because Israel is the only side that CAN give concessions. Israel has systematically dismantled the Palestinian security apparatus over the past few years - they have no troops under arms worth speaking of, and no military way to crack down on the terrorist groups. Unless Israel is seen to give some very real concessions, like dismantling settlements, there will be no political capital for peace-minded Palestinians to get rid of Arafat or take on Hamas. Hamas builds schools and Hospitals. It has a real positive effect in the lives of a downtrodden people. Until Israel is seen as something besides an occupying force, there will be no motivation amongst the Palestinian people to throw off the chains of their demogogue of a leader or the religious fundamentalists who exploit and use them.
What if they could see what you can see and realized that getting rid of Arafat and Hamas offered them a way out of misery? Wouldn’t that be motivation?
Quatoria’s post reminds me of Eddie Izzard riffing on the IRA negotiations.
IRA guy: Look, we’ll let go of the guns if you sign the paper.
Negotiater: I’ll sign as soon as you let go of the gun. Look, the pen is ABOVE the paper.
IRA: I’ve only got one finger on the gun now. Sign the paper.
Neg: Ink is dripping, but not forming letters. Stop touching the gun.
IRA: Sign it! It’s just my fingernail on the gun!
Neg: Get your nail away from the gun and I’ll move the pen. Look, it’s TOUCHING the paper!
Unfortunately, they don’t have that outside perspective. It’s very easy to form an objective emotionally detached view when the tanks aren’t in your neighborhood and the human bombs aren’t blowing up your favorite cafe. It’s a little harder when the shit is happening to your friends and family, or destroying your home in a military reprisal attack.
Much as I don’t like Hamas, I don’t quite agree with you here. Hamas offers the Palestinians valuable social services that no-one else does. So, at least in the short term, if Hamas were to disappear, their misery would be increased, not go down.
Arafat’s a different story. I think it’s a simple matter of saying to the outside world “We know he’s a thief and a jerk, but we picked him, and you can’t tell us what to do.” Notice how quickly Arafat’s standing plunges whenever Israel isn’t directly threatening him, then takes a leap upward whenever Sharon or Bush does something silly like declaring Arafat irrelevant.
Or, worse, threatening to kill him, as they’ve just done recently. I swear, if it didn’t sound so tinfoilly, I’d think that Sharon and Likud want to keep the intifada going. I can’t figure out why they so repeatedly take actions to inflame tensions, if not to keep the attacks coming, and thus keep themselves in power.
Hamas offers the Palestinians valuable social services that no-one else does. So, at least in the short term, if Hamas were to disappear, their misery would be increased, not go down.
Here’s one to gnaw on ---- fully cognizant of this problem, Israel laid extensive plans to come in and lay down the infrastructure for social services in the occupied territories. Clinics, food distribution centers, even employment agencies. The idea, obviously, would be to wean people off of Hamas and make it feasible for average Palestinians to turn away from Hamas’ “political element.” It goes without saying that this project would be horrendously costly to the already-depressed Israeli economy.
But it turned out to be moot, because once word began to leak that the Israelis were drawing up these plans, Palestinian negotiators vehemently rejected the idea.
My hope is that the UN can someday mount the same project.
Wha, I thought this was going to be a thread about beating up Dan Morris.
On the subject of which – does anyone know when the next industry boxing event might be? I’m really looking forward to it.
On the subject of which – does anyone know when the next industry boxing event might be? I’m really looking forward to it.[/quote]
Of course I wasn’t talking about fists, Dan. Just a little brow beating is all.
fully cognizant of this problem, Israel laid extensive plans to come in and lay down the infrastructure for social services in the occupied territories. Clinics, food distribution centers, even employment agencies. The idea, obviously, would be to wean people off of Hamas and make it feasible for average Palestinians to turn away from Hamas’ “political element.” It goes without saying that this project would be horrendously costly to the already-depressed Israeli economy.
But it turned out to be moot, because once word began to leak that the Israelis were drawing up these plans, Palestinian negotiators vehemently rejected the idea.
My hope is that the UN can someday mount the same project.
Interesting. I assume it fell through because the Palestinians didn’t want the Isrealis in charge of it? The idea of weaning Palestinians off Hamas is something I’ve always thought would dramatically improve the situation, but I suppose it would be hard to find an organization willing/able and acceptable enough for all parties.
My god. I come to this thread hoping to brow beat Dan, and I end up sharing his hope.
Interesting. I assume it fell through because the Palestinians didn’t want the Isrealis in charge of it?
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According to my wife (and right now I’m too lazy to get better confirmation, although she usually knows her stuff when it comes to Israel), Sharon wanted to do this for the Palestinians about a decade ago. Not because he’s a nice guy, though, but because if Israel, say, provided a water/sewer system to the Palestinians, Israel could easily disable it and essentially starve them into submission in case of a war. Similarly, he wanted to put in nice roads, b/c it would make it easier to get army vehicles into the Arab towns.
The Palestinians refused (understandably), and I’d imagine it left them permanently suspicious of any such future offers by Israeli governments.
[quote]
The idea of weaning Palestinians off Hamas is something I’ve always thought would dramatically improve the situation, but I suppose it would be hard to find an organization willing/able and acceptable enough for all parties.
quote]
The organization that should do this is the Palestinian Authority. Obviously, it would have to be funded from outside (how about funding coming from the Saudis, or other Arab states that caim to be so worried about the Palestinians?), but the PA should be in charge of the actual project.
A lot of these things (running schools and clinics) are the legitimate function of the government.
The point isn’t just to wean Palestinians off Hamas, the point is get them invested in a real government. Having the UN (frex) do everything doesn’t accomplish this.
Of course, you’d need a non-corrupt government in place for this to work, but one can always dream…
