Thanks Nellie, and some more info, as i had heard of total colony loss in the uk (my granddad lost one hive recently to a swarm event, the first time in 40 years of bee-keeping that had happened to him), but it is true it seems not exactly the same issue you have in the usa.
The neonicotinoid debate is a whole other kettle of fish. I’m not based in the USA, I’m very much a UK beekeeper which might have some bearing on what I consider the state of affairs to be.
your description is a little vague as to what you mean by ‘total colony loss’ or ‘swarm event’ but on a more general basis, in my opinion, the GM issue is irrelevant in the EU let alone the UK and the Pesticide shenanigans is the most successful co-opting of bess/pollinating insects by a group much less concerned with the well being of bees than giving Bayer and Syngenta a swift kick in the nuts.
All food is genetically-modified.
To be fair, it does seem to have some effect. Just not of the order of magnitude claimed!
This is what i meant by swarming:
He just had 5 hives at the time, but as i mentioned, in over 40 years of bee keeping (in the uk) he never ‘lost’ a hive to swarming before, his methods of controlling the natural swarm event have been successful up until…i think it was 3 or 4 years ago? (he told me it was probably down to the weird weather patterns they had been having (food issues maybe) but wasn’t 100% sure, as it had never happened to him before.)
I have no problem seeing that there would be a connection with heavy/persistent pesticide usage and effects on all insects, which would include bees. Those articles related to that are good points of reference for further research imho. Here are some more related links(most for the usa, as that is where CCD is most acute):
http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/BEEKEEP/CHAPT7/chapt7.html
http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/pollination/protecting-pollinators-pesticides.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11585.html
EDIT: and a quick update of a new link from a BBC article about last years bee production in the uk:
tough times to be a bee-keeper(or a bee!).
Well there’s the small matter that if you ban Neonicotinoids, you see the re-instroduction of Organophosphates and Pyrethoids, amongst others. They’re really good at killing bees. And fish, and birds, and mammals. Hence considering that from a non target species perspective, based on current evidence, that neonicotinoids are the least worst option at the moment.
I know what a swarm is ;)
How’s his varroa IPM? Swarming doesn’t result in the loss of the issuing hive, it’s reproduction at a colony level. This year it’s certainly possible that the shocking weather has caused problems with the new queen in the parent hive having trouble mating, but that’s a pretty slow dwindle over several weeks rather than a dramatic loss.
I have no problem seeing that there would be a connection with heavy/persistent pesticide usage and effects on all insects, which would include bees.
Pretty much covers where I tend to lean when it comes to this particular class of pesticides.
The two “big” incidents involving them that are proven were in Canada earlier this year and in Germany a couple of years ago. Both involved incorrectly applied seed coatings and planters that blew the dust into the air. In both cases large numbers of colonies were poisoned. In the EU, as a result, the legislation was changed so that seed planters had to deposit dust onto the ground.
Those specific incidents aside, the proven cases of pesticide poisonings in the UK has dropped to pretty much zero over the past 10 years. Its still a management problem on fruit trees which, I believe, tend not to be treated with these particular classes of pesticides, but the vast majority of oil seed rape (canola) crops in the UK are treated with them yet they remain the ‘go to’ early spring crop for commercial and hobbyist beekeeper alike with no apparent ill effect.
EDIT: and a quick update of a new link from a BBC article about last years bee production in the uk:
tough times to be a bee-keeper(or a bee!).
If only it were last year, it was most definitely this year, all my honey came in the one week in may where it didn’t rain.
[edit] Just spotted another article that sort of ties into this discussion:
…And you’re officially beyond what I know :)
You hear a lot of sound and fury on this, but as you say I’m not seeing the sort of numbers here which would worry me in terms of CCD. And yea, my RL beekeeping friends are :/ at the weather this year.
There is continuing research going on, some of more value than others, and I think if there is a problem with with these pesticides, it’s not to Honey Bees and is still secondary to challenges like habitat loss in species like Bumble Bees.
The biggest problem to honey bees right now remains varroa. Keep on top of that and they’ll pretty much cope with anything else you can chuck at them. Once they start to succumb to varroa and the viruses they vector then secondary conditions/diseases such as Nosema (Ceranae especially) become far more serious and at that point there does seem to be a synergistic link between the effects of the disease and the pesticides.
nice links Nellie, it’s always good to have more :) As for my grandads bees and varroa, he is clear(so far). His ‘swarm’ event was a total loss of that one hive, which is what he found so strange, and was a completely new event for him…or just thinking about it, would a ‘hive theft’ cover that kind of thing? it could be possible, i’ll chat to him about that as i don’t think this has been bought up, it was assumed to be a natural event. The hive was intact, the combs etc, just most of the bees (including the queen) had gone, if you were to steal a hive, you’d just take the whole thing surely? Anyway something to discuss with him.
His main concern is the weather and changing environmental conditions that seem to effect much of the bees regular patterns (from swarming to honey production). Pesticides is not a huge issue, mostly due to his location (south wales, remote from large scale farm production etc) and being an ‘organic’ gardener himself, so all his veg, fruit trees and flowers (that the bees love) have never been treated with pesticides, in…must be about 20 years (that’s how long he has been managing that land), and the local land round-abouts is mostly wild and ‘natural’. Companion planting and ‘old man knowledge’ tricks seem to have kept his garden and bees healthy, bar the weather effects.
I should just add that my father was also a ministry of agriculture scientist and ended as an entomologist working around the world, and in the countries where he persuaded (not easy) non pesticide use (using bugs to combat pest species instead), non aerial crop spraying etc; crops did better over the long run (in terms of yields, pest outbreak etc).
So my own non-pesticide use ‘philosophy’ comes from that family tradition. I’m a firm believer (and small time practitioner) in the use of natures own methods, rather than the agri-petro-chemical companies desire to make money with their ‘poisonous’ solutions, that i feel do more harm than good much of the time. Ymmv. Just to give you the context on my opinion in this, and other similar debates.
I’ve yet to become a bee-keeper myself, so maybe when i have some i’ll be more likely to use artificial methods, i hear one of the issue with the european bee is that is very genetically ‘pure’ (if that is the right word), a little too highly selected for it’s own good?
The Bumble bee/wild bee decline is perhaps more worrying that the domestic bee issue, in many ways. Something must be truly messed up to see that widespread an issue imho. High pesticide usage (and the pest developing resistance quicker than the host, a very common issue going on my fathers own experience in the non bee sphere) just seems a very likely candidate.
And this was quite interesting in terms of a positive way to deal with the mite:
http://www.honeybeehive.co.uk/beekeeping/pests-diseases/varroa-mite/
Difficult to say exactly what might be causing it, but I agree it’s not theft, you’d just take the entire hive.
My suspicion would be disease(s) but I’m not sure forum speculation is going to be that accurate in determining the cause.
His main concern is the weather and changing environmental conditions that seem to effect much of the bees regular patterns (from swarming to honey production). Pesticides is not a huge issue, mostly due to his location (south wales, remote from large scale farm production etc) and being an ‘organic’ gardener himself, so all his veg, fruit trees and flowers (that the bees love) have never been treated with pesticides, in…must be about 20 years (that’s how long he has been managing that land), and the local land round-abouts is mostly wild and ‘natural’. Companion planting and ‘old man knowledge’ tricks seem to have kept his garden and bees healthy, bar the weather effects.
Both in the short and medium term I think the weather s going to be pretty key, if short, early springs followed by long wet summers are going to be the norm, then it’s going to get interesting.
I should just add that my father was also a ministry of agriculture scientist and ended as an entomologist working around the world, and in the countries where he persuaded (not easy) non pesticide use (using bugs to combat pest species instead), non aerial crop spraying etc; crops did better over the long run (in terms of yields, pest outbreak etc).
So my own non-pesticide use ‘philosophy’ comes from that family tradition. I’m a firm believer (and small time practitioner) in the use of natures own methods, rather than the agri-petro-chemical companies desire to make money with their ‘poisonous’ solutions, that i feel do more harm than good much of the time. Ymmv. Just to give you the context on my opinion in this, and other similar debates
By and large I don’t disagree with you, but I tend to take a pragmatic approach. Is banning class x of pesticide going to lead to fields tended by unicorns or everyone going organic? No, they’re going to use class y pesticides instead so is class x demonstrably worse than class y? At the moment I don’t think the evidence supports that to be the case.
I’ve yet to become a bee-keeper myself, so maybe when i have some i’ll be more likely to use artificial methods, i hear one of the issue with the european bee is that is very genetically ‘pure’ (if that is the right word), a little too highly selected for it’s own good?
Which one? There are at least 5 different ‘pure’ strains of European Honeybee:
Apis Mellifera Mellifera which is native to the UK and northern Europe
Apis Mellifera Ligustica which is basically native to Italy
Apis Mellifera Iberica native, funnily enough to Spain
Apis Mellifera Carnica which is more common in Germany and central europe and on it goes.
AMM was pretty much wiped out in the UK in the early 1900s although there are still pockets of it in Ireland, wales and scotland most bees in the UK are a general mix AMM, ligustica and Carnica with a few oddballs thrown in for good measure like Buckfast Cross breeds.
I don’t know whether any of them can be considered too ‘pure’ but we don’t tend to actively try and breed for, say, disease resistance, compared to bees being easy to handle. I wouldn’t have too much problem believing that selecting too far for one desirable trait might be at the expense of another, but bees themselves are pretty well evolved to effectively outbreed and where colonies are beginning to inbreed too much it is pretty easy to spot as a beekeeper.
The Bumble bee/wild bee decline is perhaps more worrying that the domestic bee issue, in many ways. Something must be truly messed up to see that widespread an issue imho. High pesticide usage (and the pest developing resistance quicker than the host, a very common issue going on my fathers own experience in the non bee sphere) just seems a very likely candidate.
And this was quite interesting in terms of a positive way to deal with the mite:
http://www.honeybeehive.co.uk/beekeeping/pests-diseases/varroa-mite/
I agree that what’s happening to the bumble bees and other insects other than the honeybee is of probably more importance, but I think that habitat loss is currently playing a much bigger role than pesticide use. The honey bee is much easier to study which is probably why it gets the lions share of the attention.
As for powdered sugar, it’s not very effective and it can damage brood, it’s not without it’s place in a pest management scheme, but Oxalic Acid and Thymol are far more effective treatments at dealing with varroa. It’s frequently put across by some people as a good treatment because, hey! It’s just sugar and not a nasty chemical right?
Bees certainly don’t like thymol and it’s not without side effects, but it’s “natural” and doesn’t leave residues in wax. Likewise Oxalic acid, if you really want to you can make it from Rhubarb, but it’s far easier to buy it ready mixed.
And that is already having an effect on my garden. The Cherry trees were an almost total loss this year, didn’t have time to ripen, got some kind of black-fly infestation, and the birds ended up eating the unripe fruit before the ‘summer’ ended. Potatoes got a strong mold early on (that rotted out the main leaf and stem, but didn’t appear to be classic blight) so had to be dug early. Apples also had issues with mold, more than normal for a typical ‘wet british summer’. So yeah this was the first year i had a large scale and widespread ‘weather effect’ on much of my produce. This is all small scale off course, but then we also had huge global sized issues with grain production etc. So yeah ‘climate change’/weather is going to be a huge issue for bees and food production going forward.
Ah, i was meaning the uk ‘european’ honey bee. I don’t know them well enough to use their proper names yet(!) but will once i get around to getting a hive or two. I seem to remember my father and grandfather discussing the issue of the uk honey bee being too ‘inbred’ or something, and the ministry of agriculture in part being responsible etc? And i’m glad you mention the Buckfast bee, i’ve been buying ‘Buckfast Abbey Mead’ for years and having visited the Abbey and the monks, know they have a really good system in place there. I’m not sure how they are doing since the Varroa issue flared up though? I’ll have to ask some in-laws that live near there.
Habitat loss would also be a big issue in the usa i suspect, where they have those vast uni-cultured farms etc? In the uk we still have the more small scale and broken-up (geographically speaking) farm ‘culture’ for the most part, so we have a closer wider ranging habitat cover, BUT for sure we have been losing more of that (to property development etc) over recent years than we should.
Rhubarb, ah yes that is one of the things my grandad uses for the bees, i know he’s been using it as a general spray for his fruit bushes etc for decades (he also uses nettle leaves solution). Ah so that is the ‘Oxalic’ acid treatment…cool, i’ll ensure i grow plenty of Rhubarb prior to any bee hive arrival. I’m not sure if he uses powdered sugar or not, but i think one very positive thing from that ‘spring-watch’ clip, was that the old chap from Devon (iirc) was finding that bees that were active groomers of one another could deal with the varroa mite.
I suppose the sugar dusting method that encourages that behavior in a colony might be a good step, at least until the mites are less of an issue? The idea seems fine, but you do highlight issues, so i’d have to look into it more to be sure. I wonder if the gent from Devon will start to sell his ‘grooming’ bees to keepers around the country, again the issue will be even more fine tuning, but maybe if other keepers copied his method then you could keep the base gene-pool stronger, while helping with the varroa issue?
One thing is for sure, this is a big deal, a global deal, and it will effect all of us if the smart folk can’t work out a solution that does not cause more problems than it solves (so flying new bees from Australia all over the world to pollinate crops also increases CO2 levels = increases global warming/difficult agricultural weather conditions, so should not be a long term solution etc). We got to be smart, we have to work with nature not against it, we have the science to be able to, but do we have the political and corporate will? not sure.
‘Science under pressure as pesticide makers face MPs over bee threat’:
I thought we had another thread about GM related stuff, but after looking over 15 pages of threads going back to last year(2011 that is), i can’t seem to find it.
Anyway as GM can be an issue in the bee problem, i think i’ll post these two uk themed GM related articles here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jan/03/gm-food-british-public-persuaded-benefits
Which is quite a powerful double-whammy by the GM sponsored lobby to try to shift things in the uk. Thankfully the supermarkets are less than impressed, and they tend to drive the real change, so fingers crossed this is all just a lobby inspired news blitz, and will quickly fade away.
Interesting. Mark Lynas, who for years was staunchly anti-GMO, has changed his tune.
I want to start with some apologies. For the record, here and upfront, I apologise for having spent several years ripping up GM crops. I am also sorry that I helped to start the anti-GM movement back in the mid 1990s, and that I thereby assisted in demonising an important technological option which can be used to benefit the environment.
As an environmentalist, and someone who believes that everyone in this world has a right to a healthy and nutritious diet of their choosing, I could not have chosen a more counter-productive path. I now regret it completely.
So I guess you’ll be wondering – what happened between 1995 and now that made me not only change my mind but come here and admit it? Well, the answer is fairly simple: I discovered science, and in the process I hope I became a better environmentalist.
This is a pretty big deal as Slate points out.
If you fear genetically modified food, you may have Mark Lynas to thank. By his own reckoning, British environmentalist helped spur the anti-GMO movement in the mid-‘90s, arguing as recently at 2008 that big corporations’ selfish greed would threaten the health of both people and the Earth. Thanks to the efforts of Lynas and people like him, governments around the world—especially in Western Europe, Asia, and Africa—have hobbled GM research, and NGOs like Greenpeace have spurned donations of genetically modified foods.
That’s…
My my. That’s pretty much 100% in line with my views.
Yep. I recognize that there needs to be caution and testing with GM foods…but we have an exploding population on this planet and the only way we’re going to feed it is by science.
Those who are of the kneejerk anti-GM food ilk seem like spoiled, rich assholes who have never wanted for sustenance.
Holy crap, I am amazed that Lynas actually saw the light. Kudos to him for admitting his ignorance.
I think “spoiled” and “rich” don’t always fit because we have a lot of decent people who don’t worry about how they will get their next meal who are fearful of GM crops. The argument that nature provides best is a comforting one for many.
Best thing to do is clearly label foods so we know if they are organic or not or GM and let people make up their minds. Why shouldn’t something that is GM be labeled as such?
I eat raw honey because I think it is better than boiled honey and I think in general honey is quite healthy. I also eat the two tacos for $0.99 at Jack-in-the-Box sometimes. Not everyone who wants to know what he’s eating is a fanatic. I just want to be informed before I buy.
Fine, as long as the same law is applied to everything. And I mean everything. Medicine, clothing, etc.
Not sure what you’re getting at, but I’m fine with full disclosures on medicine and really anything else. There is a difference between clothing and things we ingest, though. I’m less concerned about something I wear affecting my health than I am about something I eat.