Black Panther - Marvel's Wakandan Avenger

[WhollySchmidt]

@HumanTon

@WhollySchmidt

and the Klaue connection really was about as light and fluffy as Fury popping up

But why not cut him? He’s not needed, and the movie is overcrowded as a it is. This is true of both BP and Avengers 2.

(Plus there’s the annoying plot thread of, “T’Chaka tried for 30 years to catch Klaue and couldn’t; Killmonger bags him like a chump in five minutes.” No doubt this is supposed to establish Killmonger as a supreme badass, because he can take out another badass so easily. But what it mainly does make the movie feel incoherent, because while we’ve heard Klau’s badassary asserted we’ve never actually seen it. The overall impression is, “Why did we spend time over two movies on a minor mook? All he did is delay the actual plot both times.”)

He is needed, for the story Black Panther is telling. You’re shifting your criticism away from the way it’s connected to just a concern with the script of Black Panther.

So to that concern, we saw very little of T’Chaka. I can’t really defend or criticize his effectiveness. Maybe that’s poor storytelling that we’re only told of his history with Klaue instead of being shown.

But where we go from there with Killmonger, T’Challa, and Klaue, all makes perfect sense in the context of Black Panther. T’Challa is able to apprehend Klaue, although Klaue certainly puts up a fight. Klaue is shown as capable, but not untouchable, and T’Challa only looses Klaue because he’s trying to make an attempt at doing this the right way without making an enemy of the CIA. Whether Killmonger specifically meant to let Klaue get briefly captured or not, working with him is what gets him close enough that he can make his move and take out Klaue when he’s ready to go to Wakanda.

So again, to your point about the forced connections in the greater MCU, sure, but that wasn’t the problem in Black Panther. You’ve got a much stronger case that Klaue should’ve been cut from AoU (there was a lot wrong with that movie), but I’m standing my ground on Black Panther—it’s one of the least beholden to the other MCU movies.

And to reiterate for @tomchick, Klaue Klaue Klaue, Killmonger Killmonger Klaue Killmonger Klaue Klaue.

[SadleyBradley]

It bugs me more than it should that they changed it from Klaw to Klaue. Like that was going to be the tipping point that made people say “That’s a little too comic booky.”

[Telefrog]

I never understood why he was called Klaw in the comics. The guy is missing a hand. His name is Klaw. Seems like a perfect opportunity to give him a Vibranium claw. Nope. He gets a sonic blaster instead.

WTF comics.

[HumanTon]

@Telefrog

Nope. He gets a sonic blaster instead.

It’s better than that - the original Klaw in the comics is, eventually, made out of solid sound. (Needless to say, Klaw was a Krazy Kirby Kreation.)

He does have a vibranium hand weapon. The reason it’s a sonic blaster, though, is that originally vibranium was all about sound. Vibration, vibranium. Klaw shows up to steal vibranium to make his sonic blaster in the first story about Black Panther, which is also the first story about vibranium (Fantastic Four #53 in 1966, Wikipedia tells me.)

[RickH]

@HumanTon

Klaw was never allowed to be important or interesting in his own right, he was just used to glue two things together.

I really just saw the character as a fun “see what we did with this guy” for the comics readers while maintaining his usefulness in moving the plot forward and establishing Killmonger as the guy behind the guy.

[RickH]

@HumanTon

T’Chaka tried for 30 years to catch Klaue and couldn’t

I saw it as T’Chaka didn’t try very hard to catch him for 30 years, leading to disaffection in the ranks.

[Desslock]

@tomchick

With diamonds? We should ask Stan Lee.

I think that’s actually right!

[Desslock]

@HumanTon

Another example of that is the alien artifacts in Luke Cage. The show built up a mystery about where they came from, but irritatingly never resolved it. Months and months later, Spider-man Homecoming did

Having problems remembering any of this (other than Damage Control in Spider-man using artifacts from the first Avengers). How was it in Luke Cage?

[CraigM]

@Desslock

other than Damage Control in Spider-man using artifacts from the first Avengers

Which was a fantastic bit of verisimilitude in world building, as well as a plausible (for a movie with super powers and alien artifacts) villain group.

[HumanTon]

@Desslock

Having problems remembering any of this (other than Damage Control in Spider-man using artifacts from the first Avengers). How was it in Luke Cage?

In Luke Cage they established that some Mysterious Somebody was providing Diamondback with weapons that used the Avengers alien technology. This seemed like it was supposed to be a potentially important plot thread for the series, since the alien-tech weapons could hurt Luke when normal-tech weapons couldn’t.

Having set that up, they left the question of where the weapons originally came from dangling.

Putting the pieces together months later in Spider-man: Homecoming, you figure out it was the Vulture and Damage Control who must have sold the weapons to Diamondback. (Not that Homecoming explicitly mentions this, as the movies never acknowledge the TV series.)

Not a big deal, but a small annoyance for no actual benefit to viewers of Luke Cage - and the series had enough small annoyances as it is (like the cosmic coincidence of Diamondback being both the arms dealer connected to Cottonmouth and also Luke’s half-brother, especially when neither of them is originally from NYC.)

[garin]

@WhollySchmidt

Whether Killmonger specifically meant to let Klaue get briefly captured or not, working with him is what gets him close enough that he can make his move and take out Klaue when he’s ready to go to Wakanda.

This feels like the only untidy element of the plot to me. Why did Killmonger need to wait until after the South Korea deal to kill Klaue? He could have done it in London (or earlier, probably.)

Maybe he wanted the profits from the sale of the vibranium, although the film later makes a point of showing that he doesn’t care about that.

[Tin_Wisdom]

My reading of it was that Killmonger not only needed Klaue to be more visible, but also to make T’Challa seem incapable of capturing him… just like his father was. He needed to drive a wedge between T’Challa and Daniel Kaluuya’s character, and simply showing up with Klaue wouldn’t do that.

[garin]

@Tin_Wisdom

My reading of it was that Killmonger not only needed Klaue to be more visible, but also to make T’Challa seem incapable of capturing him… just like his father was. He needed to drive a wedge between T’Challa and Daniel Kaluuya’s character, and simply showing up with Klaue wouldn’t do that.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks!

[Destarius]

Actually wasn’t this because of a transition in power being the most appropriate time? Mr CIA said it himself.

[garin]

@Destarius

Actually wasn’t this because of a transition in power being the most appropriate time? Mr CIA said it himself.

In a broad sense, sure. But if Killmonger had shown up in Wakanda a bit earlier he could have challenged T’Challa during the original ceremony, in front of the gathered tribes, which probably would have increased the legitimacy of his claim.

[Teiman]

Marvel have mastered the art of creating fluff movies like this one, with enough CGI and decent list of actors and production values.

I found interesting that the movie protagonist is not a super heroe, but a fictional country. Wakanda, the movie.

[Destarius]

I don’t think Killmonger would have known when the ceremony was. I think he took his first opportunity as soon as he met up with Klaue again and there were less goons around.

[JoshL]

I saw this last night, figured it was my last chance to see it in IMAX before Wrinkle in Time takes over.

I was kinda underwhelmed, actually. 97% on Rotten Tomatoes?

The problem is… it wasn’t much of a superhero movie. There were only a few action sequences, and really the only good ones were the car chase in Busan and the above-ground fight at the end, and even those were kinda meh.

Black Panther just doesn’t have any interesting superhero powers. He is really strong and has a bulletproof suit. He doesn’t have any Panther-related powers, like stealth or enhanced senses or anything. He fought against a villain who also was really strong and had a bullet-proof suit. So they punched each other until one of them punched better and then they won.

(Ok, yeah, that also describes Captain America, except he only has a bullet proof shield. Maybe Cap just has better villains?)

So much stuff in the movie just didn’t make any sense. They have a modern, technologically advanced society which uses trial by combat to select their leaders? And yet in their hundreds or thousands of years of history, they’ve never had a warlord king who wanted to go conquer stuff?

And there’s a way to turn off vibranium? Guess Panther and Cap better hope none of the bad guys ever figure that out.

Ok, and at the end, Panther and bad Panther fall down a very deep pit. They are at the bottom of a very deep pit. There is nothing else there. It’s not clear why there’s a pit there at all, except for them to fall down. But there is a train that runs through the middle of this pit. Where does it come from and where is it going?

The whole 5th tribe thing was underdeveloped. M’Baku could have had an interesting character arc, but he just showed up when needed and never really had a conversation with anybody.

Also, I sort of wish it had more of a link to the MCU. Like, maybe the meteor of vibranium had an infinity stone in it? Something?

[Wendelius]

@JoshL

There is nothing else there. It’s not clear why there’s a pit there at all, except for them to fall down. But there is a train that runs through the middle of this pit. Where does it come from and where is it going?

It’s the vibranium transport train from the mining operation.

I personally like that it was a somewhat down to earth movie with a very human hero figuring out what kind of man and king he wants to be. There will be more big fights MCU coming. So it was nice to dive into something different.

[JoshL]

@Wendelius

It’s the vibranium transport train from the mining operation.

I still don’t buy it. Wouldn’t a mine cart have to go like… up? Not just side to side across the bottom of a mineshaft? And there’s a full train of vibranium coming out of that mine every 30 seconds or so? Why wasn’t it running in the first place, and T’Challa had to tell his sister to turn it on?

@Wendelius

I personally like that it was a somewhat down to earth movie with a very human hero figuring out what kind of man and king he wants to be. There will be more big fights MCU coming. So it was nice to dive into something different.

Yeah, I mean… yeah. But that’s not what I got to an MCU movie for. Maybe if this weren’t an MCU movie I would have liked it better, even if it was exactly the same movie.

Oh, and another thing, am I forgetting something, or was this movie completely humorless? I think there was like one laugh line in the whole movie (and I don’t remember what it was). That’s a departure from most MCU movies as well (especially recent ones).