Void Sorcerers might be a good one too. Remembering Brimstone here had me watching a lets play series a bit this weekend. It reminded me how just doing simple things in the game tell a story. Just walking down the mine, without combat or a narrator the “story” just reveals itself. It makes me want to clear my current solo table space and setup another Brimestone run. But yes, mix in some ranged options. And maybe even some of the big bads / use a higher encounter deck if you want it to be more Lovecraftian/ humans are but play things type random futility to really boost the horror.
Some corrections for this morning:
“the sample chapter from some Warhammer [book]”
“in which characters [punch] a bunch of monsters”
“most of them just [open] the respawning spigot”
I realise I’m going against the prevailing direction of the thread, but I just looked up the miniatures for Blackstone Fortress. Holy cats, that’s some amazing looking plastic, now I think I have to own this game. Thanks a lot Chick, some negative review this turned out to be!
No way anyone could do paint jobs that good. That’s gotta be some kind of CGI or Photoshop or something. But, yeah, they’re really nice miniatures even unpainted. If anyone’s interested, I’m actually selling my copy of the game.
-Tom
No way anyone could do paint jobs that good. That’s gotta be some kind of CGI or Photoshop or something.
Hi there everybody! I’m that guy who creates an account just to revive a long-dead discussion with my TL;DR powers.
First, yes, there definitely are people who can paint like that, if not better . Look around youtube and you will be blown of mind. It takes a lot of skill and patience, but maybe not as much as you would think. You’ll be an aspiring paint licker by the end of the first video.
FTFY ;)
Very true, and a useful distinction that I wish was used more. I would define minis as (usually) single color, single piece, no assembly/no paint game pieces. Models are what GW does. But if someone says “miniatures,” you know they mean models.
I’ll dig into it a little bit :D. I don’t blame you at all for wanting that. The model/mini gaming market has been saturated with kickstarter projects, etc. It would be nice if there were more options that didn’t involve models or minis, focused on innovative mechanics, and included everything needed to play in one box with perhaps a few expansions to follow.
In a perfect world, companies like GW would make standees for people who don’t want to bother with models. Until then, GW is a company that does models. Their games might not have the most sophisticated or most interesting tabletop rules. But 40k does offer a unique combination of scale, aesthetic quality, and gameplay depth. Not to mention the staggering amount of lore propping it all up.
.
I know this is crazy, but humor me for a moment if you will. Is it at all possible that the decision to use mini - ahem - models was made because GW has always made models?
Even more ludicrous - could there be the slightest chance that it had something to do with making models for people who want them? As well as a gateway for people who have played other types of co-op dungeon crawlers?
Also… GW publishes its own stuff, black library included. So who else are they trying to earn more money for exactly?
It seems like there’s a bit of a tabletop elitist/othering mentality thing going on here. If models aren’t your thing, that’s perfectly understandable. One man’s zen is another man’s migraine. What’s less understandable is why you can’t abide sharing interests, or “overlap” with people who find that models make their hobby more engaging. If people say “minis make the game,” maybe they’re talking about the experience as a whole rather than making a comment about how much the models impact the rules. Games exist for more than just rules, and rules need a vehicle. I’ve never played Star Wars Legion and I’m not a huge Star Wars fan, but I can see how that would be the perfect thing for people who are fans.
Could you play without models? Theoretically, on paper, yes… depending on the game. With 40k that “yes” would seem less theoretical and more hypothetical as you attempt larger games. Trying to play a legitimate 1500-2000 pt matched play battle without models would be so far removed from the real thing it would be totally unrecognizable. If that means I’m saying “minis make the game,” well shucks I guess we can’t hang out.
---------EPILOGUE--------------------------------
Blackstone Fortress isn’t targeted at “people who would play warhammer if they didn’t have to build models,” as Tom’s review suggests. It’s meant to be an entry point to 40k for people who are familiar with co-op dungeon crawlers, and want to give the modeling thing a shot… Just like Kill Team, GW is trying to create multiple entry points into the hobby for people who want a game and some models but don’t want to dive right into building a huge army. Of course they’re going to milk the hell out of each property with expensive rule books and everything. But at least they were kind enough to include rules for using the models in 40k games.
What makes spending your money on amassing a big collection of board and card games so much better than spending it on a big collection of models? Why is drawing cards/filling out a character sheet and then rolling dice so much better than “lining the toys up” … and then rolling dice?
Several commenters have rattled off the names of a dozen games where they enjoyed this or that mechanic, or they like the setting, etc. - probably played twice and then moved on to the next game. Meanwhile closets and shelves are overflowing with game boxes and wives are intervening to stem the tide. Pets and small children are disappearing for days on end. Not criticizing, I can identify with all of those things.
But can you honestly say you’re getting better value out of those boxes than someone who buys boxes of models, spends hours and hours kitbashing/customizing/painting (remember: we like this part, it’s not a chore… at least not all of it), and then dozens or hundreds more hours playing the game with the army they created? The prospect of breaking a model now and then is far from frightening once you learn some skills. Even casting your own parts with resin and a silicone mold is pretty simple.
If I had to choose, I would rather exercise some creative skills, play the game, and end up with some nice looking models than a closet full of board games. Does that mean I’m loathe to “overlap” with your “crowd?” No, I’m not the choosy type. I’m more in the “why not both” demographic… the, uh… “there is more that unites us than divides us” camp… I’m a card-carrying champion of the “can’t we all just get along” club.
A patron of the… cough a, uh… a… citizen… of the…for …gasp ugh… x_x
A BELIEVERINTHEINHERENTGOODNESSOFMANKIND… An affiliate of the “glass half-full” association…
A constituent of the coexist conglomeration… oh god I’ve lost control please put m-
… A-
BLAM
And that’s how you introduce yourself to a community. Nicely done, dude.
Thanks :D Not sure if that was a fugue state or just a regular old blackout but I think we’re good now.
Because that overlap is tacking 30+% onto the entry price for the thing I want, making it more difficult to store, and actively less aesthetically pleasing than standees when not painted, IMO. And that’s for your standard tabletop game with one-piece minis. For hobby-grade minis I’d have to assemble to boot, that’s another layer of friction.
I don’t begrudge anyone liking minis, to be clear. But I do begrudge the games I want to play being saddled with them when they could be sold separately.
Welcome here, Mr. Acquisitor, and superthanks for such a thoughtful contribution! Firstly, I love that link to Sam Lenz’ minis. Err, models? But I think he’s cheating because some of those are really big. Like big enough for the Glorantha boardgame!
I only know what they’re doing from Blackstone Fortress, but compared to some of the more innovative dungeon crawlers and tactical battle games out there, it seems like they’re leaning almost entirely on the appeal of the miniatures. Is there any innovative design stuff coming out of GW? Any reason to play their games beyond the licensing and minis?
Totally fair, and I don’t disagree in the slightest.
I’m happy to cop to being an elitist. I prefer to think of it as having very specific preferences, but I don’t deny that can read as “elitist”. :) However, I don’t mean to denigrate anyone’s passion for “lining up toys” games so much as to say I personally want more.
I can’t really assign “better” to one or the other, but I’d characterize it as the difference between caring about game design over graphics in the videogame space. Or script over cinematography in moviemaking. Or – how about this? – poetry over sculpture in the art world. I’m just throwing that last one out as a concession to minis fans. :)
Honestly, though, I don’t understand how someone who’s into game design can bring himself to care one way or the other about the quality of a miniature. To me, they’re apples and oranges, and neither has much to do with the other.
That got dark.
-Tom
I think GW board games have a nice “beer and pretzels” feel to them that is lacking in many “modern” games. Their rules are usually super simple, with lots of dice chucking. With the right people ( and lots of beer), they can be the perfect way to pass an evening.
If you don’t want the models, sell them on eBay and make standees. I bet you could easily earn back 80% of the sale price by doing that. Or, wait until the game is it if print and sell the models for much more than the game cost.
… Really…?!
Sorry, I do feel your pain. It’s just been ages since I heard something so completely and utterly faoverlapng.
But honestly… what is overlapping this world when people keep overlapping your 30+%…
[quote=“malkav11, post:70, topic:140283”]
making it more difficult to store, and actively less aesthetically pleasing than standees when not painted, IMO.
I dunno man. tbh I kinda feel like if you have that many issues with WHAT’S IN THE BOXXXXXXX…
… maybe the “overlap” is occurring on your end? When we’re talking about Games Workshop of all companies including their own models in their own game, … that word just doesn’t seem to fit anywhere… GW has made just about every miniature game you can imagine in their 40+ years, so they are basically immune to overlap, if such a thing is possible (I have no idea what the word “overlap” means anymore). But I’m really not sure how you made the leap to “I’m not in this product’s target audience because of overlap, resulting in damages of up to 30+%”
It’s easy to say “well they can just sell it without the models,” but it’s not that simple and they really can’t. Especially for GW. They know If they sold a standalone rules box for BF, too many people would buy the board, skip the minis, and just use other models they already have. If GW didn’t bother making new minis for it, they would still have to sink a ton of money into developing the new board, cards, art, production, distribution, etc. And then be stuck trying to recoup a their $__ million investment $10-20 at a time selling bits of paper.
Noticed earlier today that the BF models are actually push-fit, so perhaps not hobby grade, per se.
It’s too bad. I wish I could impart a little seed of modeling love that would stick with you and grow. If you like doing hands-on, constructive/creative things at all, it can really grab you. But not everybody enjoys that stuff. f you don’t have even the slightest interest in modeling, and in fact kinda hate it, I don’t see how you can fault the game for that. Again, you’re not exactly in the target audience for it. The people it is targeted at won’t want to buy it in 2 separate boxes for no reason because more boxes cost more. Publishers don’t want to split the game into 2 or 3 SKU’s when it’s made to be an all-in-one box. That would significantly complicate the production and distribution process, increase their overhead and decrease their margins.
That’s why they make new minis for it. The profit margins on minis are probably astronomical. The profit margins for selling paper would probably be… losses. Selling the game without models would be exactly like shooting themselves in the foot.
For the people it’s targeted at, the 44 models included go a long way toward justifying the sticker price. Purchasing by the squad, basic 40k troops work out to around $5-7 per model. 35 of those in BF. Special characters like the 9 heroes included with BF can be anywhere from $15-35 each. Using median values, that’s $435 in models, if they were sold at retail price. I’m not sure where this “30%” figure came from, but that might be part of the problem. The models aren’t 30% of the package, they’re like 300% of it.
Okay, I was taking a toal blind stab with the “$10-20” guess, but… Here you go, you’re welcome.
I think the problem is you’re specifically talking about this Games Workshop minis game, and I am talking about minis in hobby coop boardgames. I get that GW is a minis company and wants to make minis games, and I have zero problem with that in the context of their core genre (i.e. miniatures-based wargaming), which I have no interest in. It’s a little frustrating when they start wanting to make games that look interesting in the genre I do want to play (in this case, cooperative dungeon crawling), especially when they took their license away from a company that was genuinely good at making those sorts of games and was doing it on an explicitly non-minis basis (because GW didn’t want them competing with their minis), but sure, if the point is the minis, then I’m still not really their audience.
The overlap I’m objecting to is between people who are in it for the minis and people, like me, who are there for coop boardgames. This has created a situation where a huge number of otherwise really appealing games are saddled with enormous piles of expensive miniatures. Having backed a number of projects that either had a base game with standees/tokens and a separate minis addon or two SKUs, one with minis, on average it cost at least 30% more to have minis. Pretty much every game I’ve bought with minis cost at least that much more over comparable games without, and Games Workshop’s games are asking for $30+ more than, say, Fantasy Flight’s dungeon crawlers, which are themselves quite expensive and have less content for that price than, say, my copy of Darkest Night Second Edition (without minis), or of course Gloomhaven (which does have minis for the PCs in current configurations but was originally available without). Since the minis don’t add a damn thing as far as I’m concerned, I can’t help but resent that premium. And it’s specifically a problem affecting my favorite genre. You don’t get this bullshit in, say, heavy euros, or worker placement games.
Well thats because theme and excitement are anathema to worker placement games. If it is more exciting than doing taxes, its too much!
Oh zing! This is my favorite thread.
I joke, and do love traditional board games. But I’d be lying if i didn’t admit that my X-wing obsession hasn’t informed my opinion. While, mechanically, the game would fundamentally be playable without minis, there is something about the miniatures that really draws people in. Helps really sell the fiction and theme. I really doubt the game would be near as popular, or even still in development, were it not for the beautiful minis.
I mean, that is a minis game, with a minis business model. It’s a pretty straightforward “are you down to pay enormous sums of money for these tiny spaceships” proposition. Just because I am not, does not mean I begrudge people who are. It’s when the question is “do you want to play this delicious game bad enough to pay an extra $100 for tiny plastic mans you not only don’t want but will take up enormous amounts of space and be a huge PITA to deal with” that I get shirty.
And FWIW, i agree that it probably wouldn’t still be in development without the minis. Because the profit is way better on individually sold plastic spaceships than on traditional boardgame expansions.
Yeah I get what @malkav11 is saying, and I think he and @Acquisitor are not talking about the same thing. I have zero problem with people buying minis that look great, or that they want to paint, or whatever. The idea of enjoyment of play based on aesthetic exists in all games, and other forms of play, such as model railroads. I bigly respect people who create cool painted minis from the stuff they buy. Super props. I completely understand that aspect, I understand the attraction, and it’s why I own an expensive airbrush but haven’t actually ever used it.
What I don’t get, and is what I think @malkav11 is talking about, is board games that could just as easily use cardboard counters, but they don’t, because minis. I differ from @malkav11 in that it’s not the cost that bothers me, it’s the minis themselves. For example, I played New Angeles with some peeps this winter, and I can tell you with 100% historical accuracy that those minis look fucking stupid. It’s like hey, I want to play with this garishly colored, stupid looking guy with a giant mallet, for no reason other than that I have zero aesthetic sense. Hey, cool. I read Casper the Friendly Ghost a while back, too. But I grew out of it. Whaddyagonnado.
I mean, that is also an aspect that bothers me in some cases. But mostly because I think a lot of boardgames have low quality minis and nearly all of them look bad unpainted. And since I’m not gonna paint…
I believe the technical term is “18XX minis.”