@CraigM thanks for the very expansive right-up, you do a great job selling X-Wing. I gave my collection away to my friends 10 year old last year and you almost make me wish I hadn’t (mostly because I’m pretty sure he hasn’t even tried to play). X-Wing is another game where I like the idea of the game more than actually playing. I never really could get into the list-building aspect and knowing my personality I knew I was going to end up spending hundreds of dollars on ships that I would never end up playing. The mini’s are really well done and I could almost justify buying them solely to put them on a shelf somewhere on display.
I don’t think X-wing’s game design was very good in the first four waves or so, so it definitely needed to shift. I dunno, combinations of moving parts are more interesting than “pick Howlrunner and six other TIE Fighters and win with pure math”.
To be fair, pure swarms got kinda put out with the super defenders.
I would argue that this is not where we are. Understand that when I give the archetypes that these are broad things that rarely map precisely onto a match. A ship may be tasked to many roles depending on build, opponent, pilot skill levels, or even the state of the match. And I’ve always found that most matchups are about how you fly your ships given what you are facing. I’ve played games against the North American champion (yes, games as in multiple, he’s a regular at one of the places I go). I’ve won and lost with some diverse lists. At no time have I felt that the conclusion was forgone. Win or lose I’ve seen where choices in the tactical battle alter the picture. How adjusting to those strategic concerns altered my tactics. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn’t. But it was by not being rigid in my tactics, not forcing my strategic choices in list to be how I played that made the game.
So, yes, there are lists where you know the other side does have an edge, but there is always an approach you can take to try and claim victory. Even Dengaroo can be beaten when you are flying Imperial Aces, it just requires patience. It is a tactically possible problem. You are fighting an uphill battle, sure, but not an insurmountable one.
This is an unfair characterization of the state of the game, and FF’s handling of it.
So, to be clear, in early 2016 the meta was not in a great place. A list called the Mynock Special (Lambda Shuttle Captain Yorr, Whisper in a Phantom, and Omega Leader in the TIE/fo) was reigning supreme. I believe that the Worlds tournament had a mirror match of this exact list. Fantasy Flight recognized this as a problem, and saw that it needed to make the tools to deal with this problem available.
Now their solutions couldn’t rightly be called power creep, and calling it a nerf isn’t the right read either. Rather it is more like what it was in the days of Fat Han, years ago. Then large loaded turrets dominated the meta, as fragile arc dodgers simply could not keep up. In came two new tools that rebalanced the game. Autothrusters and the Imperial Aces pack put the tools out there for the fragile Aces to use. Now not every list would use these tools, but by virtue of them being out there it encouraged greater list diversity. Beating Fat Han with an Interceptor was still hard, but you had a tool available that would allow you to approach a solution.
So it was with Zuckuss.
The reality was that the Scum faction was still looking for its signature list, and that munitions had mostly been considered a waste of points for single use cards. So Wave 9 was Fantasy Flight making the tools for players to use. It didn’t suddenly make Imperial Aces unplayable, and it didn’t make Scum the end all faction (though Triple U-boats was too powerful until they nerfed Deadeye). It now merely made them things you could, and would, see in competitive play.
But they are trade offs. Using Guidance chips takes the valuable Mod slot. Zuckuss takes the personal favorite Crew slot. Using them means you don’t use something else. And, depending on what, how, and where you are flying there are arguably better cards.
But having these cards out there meant that in the grind of a tournament you need to be prepared to deal with them. which was kind of the thing, before the tools to beat Palp Aces weren’t really there at the scale they needed. It was not foolproof, but it definitely pushed the odds from a 50/50 to a 55/45, or even 60/40. the Emperor was just that good on these two Ace builds (oddly enough the fewer ships you have, the more powerful the Emperor is).
But why I like the solutions is that they didn’t just boost one or two particular ships. They didn’t make it so only one faction could take advantage. Instead it brought ships from every wave back into competitive play.
As for casual play, where I am? It benefits here too. Often, even in friendlies, you see people tinkering with what goes on in the big tournaments. Which means that if Whisper is doing well, you’ll see more people trying to play Whisper. Sure people always try their own spin, I don’t really see people straight lifting full lists often, but it is more fun to fly something good than something bad, so mixing in a ship or two off top builds is common.
Which means that when one style is dominating too much you don’t get to see and experience the full range of possibilities. I wasn’t seeing Scum much early in the year, but once they became a competitive faction I’ve seen these dirty pirates popping up much more frequently. Which makes it more fun for me! I love trying to solve the new tactical puzzle that these unusual ships present me. Hey buddy, pass me the dial for that Protectorate? I’ve never seen one before so I want to know what they can do. Wow, that’s a fun looking dial, I’m going to have to work on keeping that where I want it.
You’re right that the business model is the business model. They absolutely want us to keep buying ships. But the reality is that I think they acknowledge that a healthy game is a better selling one. So it is in their interest to keep the entire scope of ships viable. Straight power creep is bad for the game, and bad for them. But I feel confident that I could create a list using any ship I own that would be tournament capable. Not that I would expect it to win, or even be the ‘best’ list possible, but rather one that gives me a chance in any match, if I fly it right. I can do that because I feel that FFG has done a reasonably good job of identifying what is working, and what needs fixing.
But it would also be fair to criticize how some of these fixes roll out. The worst case is the Autothrusters card. This was the card that really helped Arc Dodgers deal with turrets, and is an almost auto include on Interceptors. It is also, however, a card that has only been sold with the Starviper pack, a Scum only ship. It is the only Scum ship I own for that reason. Honestly today I’d probably print out my own copy rather than buy the ship, but it is from Shadows of the Empire, so the nostalgia worked on me too. It sits on my desk.
Make of all that what you will. I know you have strong feelings about FFG’s business models Tom, which is why I was kinda disappointed we never got a chance to really talk about that on the podcast, because I think there was an interesting talk there. But at the end of the day I generally approve of the job they have done keeping the game fresh and balanced. And while I may not share your distaste for the business model, and how that colors your interpretation, I do understand and appreciate where you come from there.
Being a better selling game in no way precludes how business model trumps game design. In fact, it is the perfect example of it! Fantasy Flight will never miss the opportunity to sell more stuff regardless of how or whether it compromises the design.
For example, you know the campaign add-on they released for Armada? Corellian Conflict? You literally cannot play it without spending about $600 on ships, which is outrageous. I got into Armada specifically for the campaign, but it never even occurred to me they would tailor the campaign so blatantly to big spenders. How do they do this? By stipulating a fleet size 30% larger than what the game has previously used. And by furthermore introducing an upgrade system that can nearly double the fleet size by the time you’ve upgraded it after several battles. And by even furthermore stipulating that you must have two separate fleets that cannot overlap! And why can’t they overlap? Why can’t I use my $40 Calamari Cruiser in both fleets? Why do I need separate $20 Corellian corvettes and Nebulon-B frigates?
Because Fantasy Flight includes a half-assed rule about circumventing the victory condition with an all-in battle in which all the fleets appear at the same time. For no good reason – it’s really a stupid rule – other than financial, they’ve decided that your fleets must consist entirely of unique pieces. And that’s just for playing the smaller two-fleet game. The “full” game involves three fleets for each faction. Fantasy Flight has made a campaign game in which each player has to not only spend hundreds of dollars to live up to the increased fleet size, but also has to do it twice over, if not three times over. And the add-on doesn’t even include a board. It has a paper map that you can use once, because you’re supposed to put stickers on it. And then you buy another copy of the add-on, I guess. Absolutely shameless.
Now maybe X-Wing has somehow been spared this sort of thing, although selling two separate Millennium Falcons with different shaped radar dishes doesn’t seem to indicate that. But based on my experience with Netrunner and their Lovecraft games, both of which I really like, I’d be surprised if X-Wing isn’t also rife with this sort of thing.
-Tom
P.S. I’m playing Armada for the first time this weekend, so soon I hope to have something else to lend to the topic other than a lot of piss and vinegar about Fantasy Flight’s business models! :)
I shamefully purchased one of each Armada ship for the first two waves basically entirely on the allure of owning toy starships from my childhood. I loved the collectible and iconic nature of the ships but found that the mechanics themselves weren’t deep enough to hold me. I wish the turns played a little quicker while also allowing for more than only six turns to a game.
I used to play Wings of War with the cards rather than the minis, I wonder if you could do that and save money for your Armada campaign, Tom? Or anyone looking to not spend a fortune? I mean, you would need to print your own cards to get them without the minis. I think the rules are similar enough between the two games.
Just out of curiosity, does it ask for 400 pt fleets? Because I believe that has been the tournament standard since the big ships were released (maybe wave 2?).
The thing that pisses me off about that expansion more is the upgrade and squadron cards that are included. As much as I’d love playing with Rogue Squadron, i’m not buying a whole expansion just for it.
Its a shame, because I really like the system. I find it more satisfying than X-Wing, personally, and it does have quite a bit of depth. Unfortunately, FFG games are becoming more and more difficult to find here, due to Asmodee’s policies. Because of that, there is barely any community in this part of the world that plays this.
I don’t think that’s shameful- I don’t own the Armada core set, but I got a few of the models on sale so I could recreate the Endor rebel fleet, which I have in a glass display case in our art room. It’s just a hobby, you know? Just for funsies.
I’m in the camp that X-wing is compromised by the business model. I liked the game quite a fair bit for the first several waves. I have tons of it. However the usual writing on the wall started to appear around the Aces packs time frame.
While direct “power creep” isn’t really an issue, the cross pollenization of power creep is. That Y wing sure is a beast with the heavy turbo laser card from this other ship pack and pilot blah blah from that expansion. Wow, these ships are nuts if you use the upgrade card from that big ship set. Darth Vader is total junk…oh wait he is super cool now IF I just buy the $100 ship.
That stuff just got to be too nuts. It was an endless chase of purchase and proxy. The lure of “hey you just need this box set and a few $10 to $15 ships” quickly fades as the business savvy model spreads dump cards and primo cards all over. Remove the cards from ship releases. Put them all in reasonably priced seasonal packs. Then I might come back.
Now of course the counter argument is to just “play for fun” with a small count of ships on your home table without meta issues. Sure. And if you can hold to that, especially if a kid is around-- then that’s a great way to play. But sooner or later you will wonder why Vader is so pathetic. Or something thematic along those lines. Then the rabbit hole to an empty wallet or pure cynic opens up.
Sincerely,
X- Skylander purchaser
I was surprised to find that there’s no secondary “singles” market for these kind of games. It seems like there is money to be made by someone cracking open a few expansion packs and selling the pieces at a markup.
I guess the counter-argument is that customers wouldn’t spend $5 for an upgrade card if they could just buy the whole pack for $10 more and get a bunch of extra stuff. But I would think there’s definitely a market for people who want to spend a little bit at a time for very specific pieces they want. Or people who want duplicates of a few specific things.
Hmmm, I have a line on a copy of 2nd ed. for $40, is it worth picking up? How does it compare to 1st ed.?
Well, there kind of is. Especially for upgrade cards from the Epic ships.
The most basic search I could. And I know that there were some sites that would ‘stock’ these individual cards, and price according to ‘rarity’. You want Marksmanship? That’ll be cheap. The TIE/x1 title or Autothrusters? less cheap.
Here is someone selling the cards for the TIE Advanced. This comes from the Imperial Raider expansion (the $100 one @Chaplin mentioned). It comes with 4 per box. So this person, presumably, kept 1 or 2, and is selling the others at 11 a pop. So that’s $30 or so for them.
Palpatine, from the same set, goes for $30. So right there is $60 or so from this pack.
Most card singles are cheap, but honestly I’ve never felt the need or desire to do that. I’ve got enough options otherwise that not having a specific card means I just create a different list. Like I said, there aren’t many ‘must have’ cards that you won’t wind up with from any moderate sized collection. Sure you won’t get the Emperor or the x1 title, but that’s why I didn’t put the TIE Advanced in the must buy list. The TIE Adv. Prototype is going to give you a similar enough feel, and is internally complete.
And while I am more generous than most, Vader was an early wave ship where the balance and playtesting of card costs seems to be better since, it is worth mentioning.
There are really two cases where I feel FFG has let a business model decision negatively impact the game. The Vader fix coming on the Raider is absolutely the worst case scenario. Most cards come in multiple packs, but the title for the Advanced came in only this single pack, a $100 pack. Granted it gave 4 copies of them, which meant that many wound their way into secondary markets, but still. It is either buy a $100 ship that you probably won’t play much if ever (Epic games are a different beast, and the Raider is not playable in your standard matches), but the cards separate from secondary markets, print or proxy your own, or simply have a ship that isn’t really very good.
That is a problem, and I won’t pretend it isn’t there. I can understand the business reasoning, and its not like the Raider didn’t come with a ton of other stuff (including more TIE Advanced ships), but that doesn’t mean I like their choice, or would support it with my money. Which is why I printed out a copy for those times I want to fly Vader.
The other is Autothrusters. Like I said, most upgrades come on more than one ship, and more than one faction. So if you fly Rebel or Imperial, you can get Veteran Instincts, Push the Limit, or Stealth Device. But Autothrusters came out with the StarViper, has only come out on this one ship, and that ship is Scum only. I can imagine the argument from FFG went something like ‘Scum isn’t popular, so lets put this really cool card into the scum ship so people want to buy them’. And instead of just being a really cool card, it was a meta shifting one in ways. It put Interceptors back on the map. Right now you are going to see alternate cards on them, but for a while Autothrusters was one of the most common upgrades seen.
So to criticize FFG for these things is absolutely fair. Which things lie in this state of tension, because the reality is that it is entirely possible for greed to have detrimental impacts. Aside from those two missteps I’ve felt that FFG has done a good job with keeping things within a reasonable measure. There will always be things you don’t have if you don’t buy every ship, but that isn’t something that you should let bother you. Lots of variety means that I don’t mind not having this or that card. Sure it may be fun, but I’ve got these 3 other options instead I’ll use.
And @tomchick that second Falcon? Well I wasn’t planning on buying it myself, but it was a tremendous gift from my secret santa. And it was largely FFG responding to what the community actually wanted. As someone who makes forays into the official FFG X-wing forums, and the X-wing Reddit, a new Falcon with Rey and Finn was absolutely a thing that the community wanted. That plus the things they included with the T-70 were points of a thousand threads prior to the announcement. And it is not an essential pack, and doesn’t negate the original Falcon. But, for someone getting into the game, I absolutely recommend the Heroes pack over getting separate Falcon pack, for a variety of reasons. or for reasons of variety!
I don’t think FFG knew that the StarViper would be a dud as a ship when it came out but it might be why they haven’t dropped autothrusters in that expansion. I suspect if a ship with boost drops in the next couple of waves it’ll probably drop with that the way Engine Upgrade came with the Hound’s Tooth to help catch Scum up on some useful cards.
One of the problems with the Star Wars games is that the first releases tend to have the most iconic SW stuff and FFG never quite gets it right with the balance early on, so that’s why Vader, Luke, and Wedge are underwhelming. Luke and Vader are kinda meh in Armada as well.
There are a lot of bizarre design decisions that Wave 1-3 X-wing has going for it.
That’s a lot of talk about 1 miniatures game. Wake me up when we start talking about interesting boardgames again. :P
Wendelius
They certainly seem more confident these days, that’s for sure. Wave 9&10 have some really funky ships, titles, dials, and abilities. The kind of things I feel they would only do with a strong understanding of what their game is. Which is part of what the Heroes does. One of the common complaints about turrets was that it made positioning not matter. Well the new pilots and cards are all about positioning. It shows a confidence in design that they take a ship that was fun and playable before and, through some clever powers, give it a dimension and style it did not have before.
You can really see it in the way they construct the dials. The way the stress mechanic, action economy, and red/ green maneuvers impact how a ship moves were things I don’t think they really appreciated at the start. The T-65 feels super constrained in movement because of this.
Yeah I am looking at this for my next fighter-bomber combat game
and
Man that’s not a fair fight, the Mustang is totally going to win.
I wish I had people who played wargames like that, because I love reading about people’s experiences with them.
I posted this in the hobbydesk thread, but Team Yankee is what I’m looking forward to most this year. It came out early in 2016 but I only found out about it a short time ago. WW3/Cold War tabletop combat using miniatures that need to be assembled and can be painted? I’m 11 different kinds of in!
The only thing Bannon is good for is taking a tactical nuke to the face, unfortunately.