Scientists also thought there was a luminiferous aether!
A good friend of mine got Kingdom Death Monster lately, and we decided to break it open today. While I really love the style and atmosphere of the game, and the gameplay systems are pretty cool, I found that I really hated the game’s “learn-as-you-play” style of manual. My friend, who wanted to avoid spoilers, hadn’t read anything about the rules beforehand, and we ended up spending more time trying to figure the game out than actually playing it. To say it was a frustrating experience is an understatement. In the end, it left me with a negative first impression of what might actually be a pretty cool game.
It made me think about how important it is to be prepared for introducing new games to players. I always try to read through the rules, watch videos, or play solo games before teaching people to play a game. However, in this case, I blame it mostly on the game. No one wants to have to figure out all the rules to a game while you’re playing it for the first time.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences with this game or others like it?
I really don’t like the trend toward programmed play manuals either, or worse, the “play the easy version, then the slightly harder version, then the actual real game” manuals.
We’ve talked about KD:M here before- back a while when I first received it after the initial print run and then again more recently.
My group is on Lantern Year 18 or something- getting close to the end. We’re doing terribly, but clinging to the ragged edge of survival. My oft-repeated opinion is that it’s a terrible game, rooted in systems that should have died in the '80s, but it really is a great experience, and we rejoice in every swing of fate it throws at us, good and bad. It is absolutely not worth the price he’s charging for it, but if you have the chance to play a campaign, do it.
I think I love Kingdom Death Monster, but as @Don_Quixote says, it’s more about the experience than about the systems themselves.
That said, I think games are experiences first and systems second, so a great experience in game form is, for me, a great game by definition, but a great system with a muddled experience or a tackled on theme is not.
However, only about 25% of Kingdom Death Monster’s systems are rooted in the 80s (mostly those related to bookkeeping of player status and the player damage system). Others, like the tracking of monster status and the monster damage systems, or the equipment system, are actually elegant and modern, in my opinion.
The loot and crafting is amazing and the real heart of the game.
It is not worth the $400 retail price (few things are) but I’m very happy with it for the $200 it was on the Kickstarter.
As for the programmed approach, the tutorial I think works great, as a rules light first approach to the game, but you need to read it beforehand. Playing it as you go is madness. But I actually think the rulebook is great and amazingly clear and we’ll structured (compared, for example, to the mess of gloomhaven, where a lot of important rules are almost hidden and not well explained).
The main thing that bugs me about KDM is how juvenile it can be at times. I’d much rather it be dark all the time and lay off the ball jokes, or whatever that card in the lion damage set is.
I’d put the number much higher- at least 50%, but at that point, we’re pretty much just haggling over semantics.
The AI/Monster damage system is amazing, the game’s big innovation. The combat system for the heroes is just straight out of history, and the crafting, settlement, and hunt stuff is fine for what it is, but there’s also a lot of ‘roll a dice and compare it to this table/draw a card’ and randomly you die stuff in there, which similarly should have been left behind long, long ago.
I think crafting is great. Other settlement stuff is fine and the hunt table is an unmitigated WTF that should have been substituted by cards (the idea of which is already half there).
But yeah, the overall experience, despite the sometimes glaring issues, works extremely well. It also helps of you go fast through the less developed bits.
But I also consider it to be a solo game, and I think that does a lot for the experience (because rhythm and time comittment are not so important there) . I think there are many issues with it that would make it unbearable (for me) in a non solo setting.
But as a solo game… the best thing I’ve played in a long, long time.
Played Gaia Project for the first time today. I enjoyed it; I felt it was a worthy refinement of the Terra Mystica concept with a modular board, different races, and changes to the techs and powers. On the other hand, it is pretty much the same core mechanics.
Given Tom’s comments on Total War: Warhammer 2 being disappointing as not enough improvement/change over TW:WH 1, I wonder if people feel that way for Gaia Project. For me, Gaia project was “new enough”, but then again so was TW:WH 2.
Sorry if repost, new to me:
That is great, although it probably is a repost. I wish the guy would do more reviews.
Going back to my comments about Kingdom Death Monster, I was talking to my brother (who has also played it) last night, and he said that the rules clearly say that someone should play through a solo game before trying it with other players. He said he did this, and his group hasn’t had any major issues. This leads me to believe that my bad experience with the game was due more to the owner of the game not preparing properly rather than the games rules being faulty. While I have some other feelings about this situation, the internet is not the best place to express them :-/
@Sharpe I so wanted to enjoy Terra Mystica but I only played it twice, with the same person, and it seemed clunky to set up, and the chrome/theme seemed slightly too abstract. Both times were the introductory game that pitches desert people against witches. I imagine with an extra person and 2 or 3 more playthroughs, it would have been awesome.
I absolutely enjoyed the feeling of not having enough resources to do everything, forcing some interesting hard choices though.
then again I enjoyed Concordia…what do I know? :O
Gaia Project seems like it’d be more fun, if only for the modular board.
I can’t imagine playing TM or Gaia Project with just two players, but I’m guessing the latter is better for it. A major mechanic of these games is getting power while your opponents build next to you, and with only one opponent and the huge map in TM, it seems that would happen less often. I don’t actually know the setup rules for GP (I’ve only played it once, a friend’s copy), but I assume with the modular board you use fewer tiles for fewer players.
I do think after only the one play that GP is the better game, but honestly, if I had TM and the expansion already, I probably wouldn’t care, especially with the $100 price tag on GP. It’s pretty much the same game, a bit less fiddly (you’re not covering every space in the board with a tile) with a few tweaks (tech track instead of cultists), and the variable victory conditions introduced in the TM expansion (which were very needed).
I finally tried Unfair. I like the build aspect. I ran into a problem with what I’m going to call the FFA aspect. The game has events that allow you to hurt another player. When you have a two-sided game (2 teams or 2 players), or when you have set goals (such as Vast where each player has a clear goal on who to go after) this problem does not exist. The problem is dog-piling and “irrational attacks”.
Take a three-player FFA. 3rd and 2nd place should gang up and take down 1st. People should be playing to win IMO. I get annoyed when people seem to make “irrational” choices. I guess some people think if they can’t win anyway they’ll try to do something to feel useful.
I guess if you’re playing a Risk-type game where you invade territories I understand the diplomacy aspect is integral to the game. I don’t like when all these other games become diplomacy games.
I guess I have to grow a thicker skin. I understand if I was in the lead, but I was pretty far behind. And it seems I get ganged up on more often than not because I am an amusing target (I am very expressive.) I feel there is a little bit of bullying and pushing-buttons involved on these people. I have known them for decades.
Part of me feels I should have been vindictive and stopped trying to win, and just started taking down their stuff (It feels so petty thought). There were 5 players. The two that kept going after me ended up 1st and 2nd place with a single point difference.
My kickstarter copy of Rising Sun arrived Monday (still waiting on the mat).
Wow. Seriously. I love Blood Rage, but this blows Blood Rage away!
We are 2/3 through a 4-player game. We have only been able to one season a night (due to workday schedule, not length of the game). So far, my two boys, my wife and I all really like it.
So glad I got this KS!
You guys aren’t talking about this, right?
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/135895/rising-sun-asl-module-13
Not as interesting!
Man, I’m trying to learn ASL, but it’s hard with so few people around here playing. And talk about a disaster of a rulebook!