Boardgaming in 2018!

That is 100% up to you. I’ve always found playing with a full character count more interesting because you have more space for power interactions and, um…other mechanics that Legacy deploys. But I think it’s supposed to be easier at 2.

On an unrelated note, got to play Cthulhu Wars at a gaming gathering tonight, with a couple of faction expansions. I played the Black Goat faction, against Cthulhu, the Crawling Chaos, the Wind Walker, and the Sleeper. I ended up in second to last place, probably because I didn’t push gates early enough and was not aggressive. The game felt enough like Chaos in the Old World to trip me up because of some differing mechanics (e.g. scoring, battling being an intentional action that costs power and is separate from movement). There’s definitely nice asymmetry going on and the minis are gorgeous, so as an experience with someone else’s investment, I enjoyed it. But I don’t think it’s as strong as CitOW, designwise, and I already have that. So spending $200 on a base box let alone picking up the hundreds of additional dollars in expansions (which, frankly, I would feel the need to do) doesn’t seem like a wise investment. Which is just as well really.

Just ordered my copy of Justice League: Dawn of Heroes from overseas. Looks like a US distribution may never happen, and getting a seller to sell in the US is really hit or miss. Well reviewed game (though components are average to so-so), so spending a lot for overseas shipping. A miniature dungeon crawl game with the JLA? No way I could pass.

Damn, can we switch game groups? Lords of Waterdeep is a fan favorite here, and they even sometimes play it without the expansion. It is maddening.

Granted I will tolerate it with the full expansion. (both modules). I need both the corruption and the super quests but I would still definitely rather play something else.

Definitely take two characters each! The “brain bandwidth” required for each character in Pandemic is pretty low, and there are more interesting interactions when you introduce more character abilities.

BTW, that is one sweet-ass rockin’ avatar you got there!

Man, I’m still steamed about Cthulhu Wars. I bought the game when it came out, only to have the designers make all sorts of rules changes because they realized that there were issues. You know, the sort of thing you playtest a game to discover rather than wait for your paying customers to find. So I’ve got a copy of Cthulhu Wars with a bunch of incorrect information printed on the boards and player aids. Nothing accents a pricey boutique game like Cthulhu Wars like magic marker corrections scrawled on the board!

Not even in the same league. Cthulhu Wars is piddly amateur hour nonsense.

-Tom

I really like base Cthulhu Wars. I loathe all the expansion stuff. It’s one of the two games I’ve played where the expansions actively make it worse.

The expansion factions are terribly balanced or designed. Windwalker is ridiculously overpowered (I don’t think I’ve seen a game yet with Windwalker where he didn’t win; maybe once where he was one or two points short of winning and came in 2nd). Sleeper is a terrible non-interactive nuisance, more of a natural disaster you have to play around rather than a player you compete against (reminded me of playing against Cylon Leaders in Battlestar Galactica). Opener is a one shot gimmick where you have to set up one single killer turn, usually turn 3 or 4, and if you don’t pull it off perfectly, you’re coming in last place guaranteed (have fun playing out the rest of the game with no chance of winning). Tcho Tchos are a gimmicky mess. All the recruitable neutral stuff turns it into a messy version of Kemet and then why aren’t we just playing Kemet?

I like the base game more than Chaos in the Old World though. You get to play with all the upgrades every game whereas in Chaos you only ever got to use one or two and you always picked the same ones every game (cultist upgrade). The world event cards were inconsequential in Chaos, the factions not very well balanced, and you could get screwed by your best power cards simply never getting drawn (Tzeench lived or died based on drawing his Dazzle cards).

Are we still venting about local game group tastes? Half the people in mine play nothing but Catan and Pandemic. Why are people still playing Catan and Pandemic in 2018?

Because fun is fun?

Sure, but what does that have to do with Pandemic or Catan? :)

I can understand liking that you get all your spellbooks in Cthulhu Wars, although personally I’d rather have that as a strategic choice that you don’t see all of in any given game. I will say that our Windwalker was…third, I think? and Sleeper won. But then again, Sleeper was being played by the owner of the game and the only other faction being piloted by someone who’d played the game before was Crawling Chaos, who ended up second. The game owner said Windwalker had been errataed a bunch but then he never showed us the rules or the errata so it was a little messy on that front. Fundamentally I don’t think my opinion of the game would have been changed by a better teacher, though. Most of my issues with it are more with things like the actual play being fairly lightweight, the rather pyrrhic nature of combat with none of the figures having more than one HP, the pacing feeling a bit weird with separate move and attack and the power cost thereof, and the minis being super wasteful and a bit in the way. Not dealbreakers (except the minis driving the cost somewhere I’m not willing to go), but places where they don’t feel as good as Chaos in the Old World.

I would at least partially dispute most of your characterizations of that game. Most factions won’t get all their upgrades, probably, but only Nurgle should be in serious danger of only getting one or two and Khorne (if victorious) will probably get all of them. The world events can end up inconsequential, but many of them will meaningfully shift the balance of play and need to be contended with, worked around or exploited. The factions are fairly impeccably balanced, but it’s important that everyone at the table understand both their own faction and what they need to counter from other factions, and a 3 player game loses an important pillar of the balance so I wouldn’t recommend it. And yeah, the power card decks introduce a bit of randomness (though Tzeentch in particular is way less subject to it because of how fast they replenish cards) but it’s not been my experience that I’ve ever been knocked out of the running by needing and not drawing a very specific card - they’re just another tool in my arsenal, to be rolled with as needed. It’s a complicating factor I very much missed in Cthulhu Wars.

When you get that “Your shipping label has been printed” email from VPG…

I think your Cthulhu Wars experience reflects the faction balance. Opener can be good IF the player pulls off their one super turn exactly right, and the most experienced player at the table played him and managed it. If the player messes up that super turn, or god forbid you hand him to a new player, he’s going to come in last. Crawling Chaos is the overall best base game faction (my only niggle with base game is that Crawling Chaos could use a minor nerf and Cthulhu a minor buff), and the 2nd most experienced player came in 2nd with him. Everyone else was a first time player and Windwalker came in 3rd, behind the only two people who had played before. I’d wager that with one more game, that player could come in 1st with Windwalker. It’s stupid how many advantages that faction gets with no drawbacks (the same combat strength as Cthulhu, the same combat flexibility as Crawling Chaos, some of the easiest spellbooks in the game to get). Personally, I would never include a tricky faction like Opener in a newbie game (newbies have no chance of playing him effectively, and nobody can expect and defend against his super turn if they never seen him in action before), and if there were 2 experienced players on the table with a bunch of first timers, I definitely wouldn’t give Crawling Chaos to one of the experienced guys.

Sounds like you’re talking base game Chaos in the Old World? In the expansion, no one wins by dial. Like, ever. I was part of an online community about 5 years ago that played over a hundred CitOW games, all by very experienced people. I saw a ton of plays, but interest in the game died out when eventually everyone admitted each game played out the same way with the same balance issues.

Base game, only Khorne or Slaneesh are going to realistically win by dial, and even then you only get to play with more than 2 upgrades for a turn or two. Nurgle is mostly stuck with 1, Tzeentch might get 2 by the very end. It would be less of an issue if the upgrades were flexible based on the board development, but you want the same upgrades in the same order every single game. Everyone wants the cultist upgrade first, no exceptions.

From there the games always played out in the same way. Khorne would win by dial if the other players were inexperienced and let him. Nurgle would win if everyone interfered with each other enough to delay victories. Tzeentch would win with cultist warpstone bombs if he drew the right cards. If none of those conditions were met, Slaneesh would win by dial advancement because nobody ever bothered attacking his 2 defense cultists and he just passively sat there as a non-entity.

(There was one exception with an alternate Khorne strat that someone discovered was very effective. He could actually win by VP and dominating regions rather than killing pieces for dial advancement. You take his Bloodthirster upgrade first (Bloodthirster counts as 3 figures for domination) and use that to dominate regions and keep others out. There were some other details I forget but it was an almost unstoppable strat in the right hands).

The expansion partially fixed the upgrade issue, to having 2 or 3 viable upgrades per factions instead of mandatory cultist ones. Everyone now had to win by VP since dial was almost impossible. Tzeentch got some new super card and was now the most powerful faction but even more dependent on drawing the right cards. Slaneesh lost the 2 defense cultists which was a good thing but got no new buffs to make up for it and became by far the weakest faction.

I vaguely remember the world event cards, except that they were mostly inconsequential, except for one or two that disproportionately screwed over a specific god. If they came up at the wrong time, that god was unfairly screwed by unpredictable randomness.

It was Sleeper, not Opener. They don’t own Opener.

And I have mostly played base game Chaos, yeah. I do own Shadow of the Horned Rat but the consensus I’ve seen is that the alternate cards are not nearly as well balanced and that seemed borne out by the forum game I played where I had a fairly runaway VP win with Khorne. My experiences (and the other discussion I’ve seen on the game) really don’t mesh with yours, with the exception that yes, dial wins are a real longshot for Nurgle and a situational play for the other two. This is by design.

Ah, Sleeper. Windwalker might be the most overpowered faction, but Sleeper was always the least fun to play against in my games. He has infinite delay (everyone knows how powerful delaying is and being the only one left with power in a turn) with his Great Old One, and that Energy Nexus wizard upgrade means his GOO will never, ever die in battle. If there’s any danger at all to his GOO being killed, he’ll just use Energy Nexus to move away before the battle starts, even before pre-combat abilities like Cthulhu’s devour, and since he never gets drawn into battles with his GOO, Crawling Chaos can’t use Madness retreats to force his wizard away from the GOO. Sleeper’s Burrow ability means that he’s not even spending much power when he moves away from combat. It only takes him 1 or 2 points whereas it takes any attacker three or four times that to move in a large force and attack.

So you might think, okay I’ll just attack his gates instead. You can, but he’ll just take gates back at the end of the turn when everyone else is out of power and he has 8 to run around uncontested. His GOO can capture expensive monsters and sacrifice them for power. He always has one unassailable gate off board.

And there’s one thing that propels him into the stratosphere for ridiculousness even beyond Windwalker levels: having Crawling Chaos in the game. With that, he has use his (serpent man?) upgrade to copy another faction’s power for the turn, and using it to copy Crawling Chaos’ 2 movement speed completely breaks the game to the point that it had to have been an oversight by the designer. 2 movement speed with his low cost Burrow movement. At that point, every single gate on the board is accessible to his end of turn rampage. It’s not uncommon to see him capture 2 gates and sacrifice 4 monsters every turn at that point.

He actually never used Burrow and only used the Wizard ability once or twice. But his GOO still only died once because of the spellbook Demand Sacrifice, where if you attack Sleeper at all with the GOO out you have to either lose a Doom point, give him an Elder Sign, or convert all Kill results to Pain. So generally people were opting for the latter since at least driving him off stuff accomplishes something without simultaneously helping him win. Crawling Chaos did manage to Madness the GOO into the middle of my map position, though, so I piled on with Shub-Niggurath and a bunch of Frenzied cultists and such and killed him by forcing retreat through Pain in a situation where he was entirely surrounded by my troops. And then he used his Serpent Man stolen ability from Cthulhu to pay 4 power to immediately reawaken the GOO and get an Elder Sign for his troubles. Sigh.

What genre would Chaos in the Old World type games be? They’re not quite worker placement.

I would say my opinion on Chaos in the Old World is like Pandemic; they were important in that they kicked off a new genre, but they’ve been surpassed by so many better successors that I could never see going back to it. Cthulhu Wars, Cyclades, and (from what I’ve seen so far) Kemet all scratch that itch better.

I don’t know that Pandemic kicked off anything particularly - coop games have been around in similar forms since the 80s at least, and even if you discount the creaky old stuff, genre stalwarts like Arkham Horror (the Fantasy Flight version - the original is an 80s game) predate Pandemic by a few years. It’s certainly become one of the most popular ones, but then it’s cheap, lightweight, easy to learn and doesn’t have a nerdy theme (or indeed much theme at all).

And I can’t argue with preferences really, but for me Chaos in the Old World still stands out at or near the pinnacle of its particular design space. I certainly wouldn’t take Cthulhu Wars (based on that one play, at least) or Cyclades (ew, auctions) over it, and Kemet is cool and more flexible in terms of player count but it doesn’t have the deep-seated faction asymmetry that I enjoy so much in CitOW. And that seems to be the broader consensus I’ve seen, for whatever that’s worth.

I believe the technical term is “dudes on a map” games.

-Tom

There was a time when people called them Waro games because they had elements of Euro games and War games. A dark dark time. (Thread for reference.) For some reason it seems like only stupid genre names stick.

I played Ticket to Ride yesterday for the first time in a while. For us, its one of these games that we played to death back in the day and have moved on from since. We had a fun time revisiting it, but it reminded me how shallow that game can be. So much is dependent on drawing the right cards (both trains and routes). We played the european version, which many people consider to be the best. However, while I like some of the additions (such as the stations), I think it adds unneeded complexity without much added depth. I couldn’t help thinking about American Rails (or Chicago Express – they’re basically the same), which has loads more depth but with simpler rules. For people completely new to gaming, vanilla Ticket to Ride seems like its still a great choice. But if the players have any experience at all in gaming, I think there are many better light-medium weight train games out there.

Yeah I’m getting down on the largest local meetup group because it seems like the only things they ever want to play are Catan, Pandemic, and Ticket to Ride.

It feels like watching TV with someone who only ever wants to see Friends, Alf, and Home Improvement.

This!

Eric Lang is the premier “Dudes on a map” designer, and the great thing is his Dudes-on-a-map games DEFY the easy Eurogame/Ameritrash classification, romancing both, for the win. I own CitOW, Blood Rage, and hopefully soon Rising Sun. Still waiting on the package… (oops! I suppose I love Dudes on a map games: or Eric Lang is my god now)