I think the difference between these two things is almost entirely in the tone and phrasing.

Yikes, I’m sorry CO2 turned out to be such a miss for you. It’s odd but I have similar feelings about Terraforming Mars, it’s a game I should ostensibly really like but I just don’t.

thanks for “selling it” ;) I stared at the map a couple of times, but when I think of the map now without looking at it, it is just some orange mishmash with circles on it and some tracks. I once read these impressions and thought, wow, that has to be a great game, and lucky a reprint came out

maybe I’ll give the game a second chance, when we all live in caves without electricity due to climate change and failing to do something about it.

There are 2 of the use any spots on the board. If you take the one that grants1st player spot and decide to take 1st player, you don’t get to use the any of the actions.

Tom I will take co2 off your hands.

Like others have mentioned it often depends on skill and experience of the players. Generally we do point those things out, but if we are all similar and the game is close we sometimes don’t. If it is a last turn and everything is close and it is my regular group and we are experienced with the game then maybe not.

That’s not the way I interpreted the rule. Here’s the text:

The player may optionally choose a Capital action
(Construct, Recruit, Research) with no more available
spaces and perform its associated standard action.
Worker restrictions and benefits of the copied Capital
action apply for the Worker placed on the
World Council, whereas space-related features of the
spaces of the Capital action do not apply.

NOTE: A player may place a Worker on the first
World Council space even if there are still available
Worker spaces in all Capital actions in order to take
the First Player marker. In this case no Standard
action is performed.

We took that to mean that if you go to the World Council space EARLY (when there are still other actions available) you only get the first player. But if you wait until all the regular Capital Spaces are used up, you get the action (but not the normal space bonus) AND the first player token.

Unless the player is highly skilled or experienced, I’ll generally point out errors like you described. Especially if I was the one who taught the game. I understand the idea of letting people learn from their mistakes, but the groups that I tend to play with are constantly buying new board games, and therefore many games are never played more than once. I’d rather someone has a better experience the first time they play the game, because who knows if it will be played again.

Speaking of kingmaking, I have another meta-board-gaming discussion question. What do you do when you are in a situation where it is impossible for you to win, but your remaining actions are likely to determine the winner? My usual tactic in that situation is to randomize what I do so that it’s not personal, but that’s very satisfying for anyone. I’ve also tried playing in a manner that maximizes my score even though I will lose, but not all situations lend itself to that.

This is literally the worst. It’s a sign of insecurity, which in this context is simply pathetic, but I would say that if someone does this every single time they play, then they haven’t been properly socialized by their game group through merciless ridicule when they do that. I have a friend who tended to do this, until it became a meme (not an Internet meme since there was no Internet) in casual conversation. Someone would order a Big Mac at McDonald’s and someone else would say, “Hey Jeff, I bet you would have ordered a Big Mac first if you hadn’t made that one mistake.” Since we were younger and hung out together all the time it was easy to pounce on each other’s foibles, but it worked. He eventually stopped.

I had this experience more recently when I had just moved to Portland and got roped into a game of Snowdonia by a rando at the Lucky Lab meetup. He found three of us looking for games and taught us the game, explaining how it was such a great game. None of us knew each other. This kind of quiet guy won and seemed pleasantly surprised by it. Before any of us could even say “good game” the guy who taught us started going on about how he would have won except that he did such-and-such one turn early and so on. The winner seemed kind of sad that his win was being disqualified in this way, and it was kind of uncomfortable. After a little while, I interrupted and just said, “hey man, you should try and win more so you’d complain less.” He got super offended. I told him to go fuck himself. It was at a bar so I may have been drinking.

I haven’t been to Lucky Lab in a while but if you see that guy, don’t play with him.

I try to make it so the person who wins is the person in the group who tends to win the least. If I don’t know anyone, I throw the game to the person wearing the nicest shirt.

Yeah it is all context sensitive. If it is a choice for, completely fictional example here of course, my action being the difference between my wife or my brother winning, well, my brother would do the same for me. Openly announce he is stabbing me in the front. In fact we sometimes will ignore the win conditions to simply needle eachother all game.

King of Tokyo being the ur-example of that form.

More broadly, it really depends on the context of the game and player expectations. At our recent game meetup my goal was to try and be a fair and impartial nudge. And hopefully that came across. If someone was performing something that felt especially deleterious to their chances, i tried to point it out (such as, don’t take a share on action 3 without good cause, make sure to absolutely deliver a good on turn 1, point out some viable route paths). However it was always meant as light advice. Here is a possible option, and some reason why to consider it, but please make your own choices. And if pointing out something good for you stepped on the toes of my plans? Oh well, I can adjust. But as it was all with relatively experienced gamers, it was all fairly low key. I felt no obligation to point out optimal moves or point out cheaper route alternatives.

My goal is to try and make it so everyone has a good time. And part of that is helping people avoid any too severe mistakes. And the more green a player is, or if they request it, the more advise I would be willing to give.

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Assuming a game has second place, I’m going to try as hard as possible for second if I can’t get first. If I can’t affect my rank at all, I’m going to try and get the highest score I can possibly get. If there’s no rank and no points (single winner style games) and I can’t win, I will help players win who were the nicest or least mean to me.

I genuinely believe that games with single winners and no points are expecting this type of play, and that it isn’t in bad form as long as you clearly telegraph it. If someone does something devastating to me, I will say “Are you sure? I’ll remember that.”

I don’t particularly appreciate that style of play so I avoid the type of games that encourage it (for the most part, Cosmic Encounter being an exception). I don’t appreciate it in games with ranks or points and get annoyed when people bring personal stuff into those kind of games.

Now that’s badass. I mean, in the context of nerdy dudes playing boardgames. But badass nevertheless.

I wonder if some of these situations are the result of the stereotypical boardgamer being a bookish type who was probably in band or debate club instead of playing sports. I never did sports as a kid, so I never had any context to learn the principles of sportsmanship in competition. Things like congratulating the winner and, arguably more important than being a gracious loser, being a gracious winner. Instead, we just played D&D and made up a bunch of stuff together and no one won or lost because, really, there are no rules about what you’re going to say to the tavernkeeper.

-Tom

And this is a completely separate thing. There is always room for post game analysis of choices. But the line between ‘man, in retrospect, this choice I made gave you the opening to win’ and ‘You only won because I screwed up’ can sometimes be simply one of tone. Because sometimes the answer really is that had you done X instead of Y, the outcome would be different.

Like with X-wing, we often have lengthy post game discussions over lists and choices. In fact the bar next door has become a frequent gathering place after PGS closes to discuss. This includes tactics, and variance. Because it is a game with dice. Sometimes you simply roll 2 evades on 40 dice. (Evades comprise 3/8 of the dice faces, so this is over 5,000,000 to 1 odds, and yes that literally happened to me at a tournament) and you literally can only laugh and blame the loss on the dice. But too often wins and losses are attributed to dice. I’ve actually been noting critical moments in games, and doing the probability calculations to more accurately evaluate play. Sure it may feel like my choices were good, and I got hosed by good luck, but when I look at the numbers maybe I really only had a 55% chance to destroy that ship, and they had a 27% chance to destroy me if I failed to destroy them first. Sure, mathematically, I am in a stronger position and losing that exchange is less than likely. But we are talking ~1/8 odds, thats not that unlikely. Maybe the risk was warranted, or even necessary. But maybe it wasn’t justified at that point and my better option was discretion and bugging out. Other times it is two <5% events that occur, and so my choice was the right one, but just an unfortunate outcome.

So we talk, and try and be mindful of the role of variance in our outcomes. Nobody likes it when someone always blames the dice for losses, and always doing so prevents you from learning from mistakes.

We had one player, relatively new, who did tend to overemphasize the role of dice. But he’s a nice enough guy and during these AAR’s we talked through the events pf the game, maybe ran some numbers, and pointed out different choices and how they impacted things. ‘Hey, you did this move here, which meant your shot was unmodified. Had you done Y, you would have had a focus and so your odds of doing damage would go from 26% to 63%. Or your positioning here meant the obstacle closed off your escape routes, and I was able to use that to get a flank on you. Had you done this the turn before, then you have these options available which would not allow me such clean advantage’

Because we are all fairly invested in the game, and know the group well, we try and encourage more positive behaviors. We all know people have bad days, and try to be mindful. Yeah, sometimes you have a day where everything goes sideways and it’s not really your fault. Your opponents rolled the hottest dice on earth for 3 games, and you simply are salty about the whole thing. We’ve all been there. But lets focus on what you could have changed, burn those dice, and get another beer and try again next week. And because of the group, we rarely have problems. It also helps that we skew older, average probably hovering around 40, mostly married and mostly parents. So we aren’t in it for the drama! So when I, or another, gets a little too salty and on tilt, someone is there to keep things from festering.

Sharpe,
Sorry you are correct.

David Turczi,
You can place in this spot always, (for example to become 1st player, on the left spot) but you can only copy an action that has NO EMPTY SPACES. In the example, both recruit and construct has available spaces, therefore they cannot be copied yet.

Although, to be honest, I like the harder way we have played it. I think In Rhado’s runthrough he played it wrong and that’s why I did.

If it’s someone’s first time playing a game and they make a mistake that is obviously what they should do I’ll point it out and even go back and let them fix. If it is our 3rd game and they make a mistake, TO HELL WITH THEM! I’d still let them go back unless the other player has already done something that makes the player realize their mistake.

Sorry for the intrusion into this thread, but I played a boardgame for the first time since the early 2000s, so I wanted to share.

One of the things I always found interesting about boardgames is that who you play with has such a big effect on how the game plays out. Playing Monopoly as a kid was interesting because of how tensions would get ratcheted up when the end-game got closer and closer, and certainly some feelings were hurt sometimes, even between family members.

That got ratcheted up even more when I played Risk with my friends as I got older. Deals were made. Deals were inevitably broken. Feelings were really hurt. Lessons were learned for next time. This dynamic made board games really unique.

So in the past, I’ve played Catan with friends. The game is a really interesting one. It never gets as hostile as Risk gets. That’s one thing I really appreciate about it. Yes, you can try to cut a better deal, and the deals that play out ultimately make some players decide to hand the win over to someone over somebody else. And trust becomes an issue in subsequent games.

Well, last week, I played Catan with the family. There were me and 3 elder brothers, and two very young niece and nephew.

While it was fun, it wasn’t nearly as fun as when I used to play Catan with my friends in the Seattle area. There was almost no tension. No hurt feelings. We all loved each other. So the dad of the kids worked together with his kids so that one of them won. And it was okay with everyone. Because, of course he did. But it made for a much more boring dynamic. Without that tension, without the hurt feelings and the betrayals and the trust issues and the manipulation and politicking, it is not the same game at all.

You still have to pay an extra water (or 2? I don’t remember) to take the first player World Council spot instead of the other one. So even with my interpretation it’s still not a strictly better choice.

But sure, we have all stumbled into rules we like better than the “correct” ones at times.

Yeah, that game is called Marianne Williamson’s Settlers of Catan.

Not all heroes wear capes.