Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

#3311

Others have said how this is really a misjudgment, but I’ll pile on. Spain is extremely pro European, to the point the populist parties (extreme left or right, don’t matter) here can’t even think of questioning EU membership. I don’t think there’s any anti-EU party.

@Ginger_Yellow touched on the reasons. The EU can have its issues, but we compare it with a Dictatorship. The net funding also helps a lot.

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#3312

I mostly meant before it actually happened. Remember the EU was an idea Europe has been kicking around for quite some time.

Smaller economies and less stable governments seem the most likely to get the short end of the stick. Greece already saw some of that, to where many people were sure they were leaving the EU to try to inflate themselves out of the shitshow they were in. As far as Spain and Italy, I’ll be honest I just picked the most fascisty places. My knowledge of modern Spain is basically nothing and of modern Italy is that they were going Trump before anyone else and have been almost since Benito was around.

I’m more than willing to admit I was wrong, my bigger point was that I didn’t think it would be the UK who fucked the dog first, though they do have enough national pride, I guess. I just assumed overall they weren’t idiots that would shoot a gift horse in the face just because the Empire ended forever ago.

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#3313

I maintain alot of the supposed issues people have can be solved by us. I also think most of those issues don’t hold up under any sort of scrutiny though.

Not up to them. As far as I know, article 50 can be stopped, without notice, indefinitely, by the UK.

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#3314

No, the UK can rescind article 50. Take it back. Say “Huh, actually, we’re not leaving after all.”
It can’t pause article 50.

Good luck finding a PM that will take Brexit back though…

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#3315

Ok, what does the short end of the stick mean? Not as friendly a treatment as possible, sure. Kicking the can instead of fixing the problem? Quite probable. But how many times did countries default and not get screwed in the short run? And in the medium run Greece didn’t see much of a way of defaulting, pissing off the rest of the countries of the EU and not be screwed…

Still, that’s the Euro, not the EU. Leaving the Euro, if someone manages to do it without screwing up the economy in the process can be a good idea, and it’s quite popular in some places.

Leaving the EU, less so…

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#3316

Solve the Irish Border issue, then.

It cannot. It can be withdrawn entirely by the UK, but not postponed without the agreement of the EU.

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#3317

A point: the EU actually has always had a system that gives the small states a disproportionate amount of power as compared to the big states - generally more so than is the case in most other democratic institutions. An MEP from Malta, representing some 80,000 people, wields as much power as an MEP from Germany representing ~800,000. So the idea that countries like Denmark, Holland, Greece, etc. can be/were bossed around by the big states in the EU don’t really reflect the reality. On top of that. national delegations also don’t always work together - sometimes favoring working with ideological partners from other countries.

The system did get a bit out of balance during the 2000s, due to all of the new additions to the Union. But that actually pushed the balance more in favor of the small countries, since most of the new additions to the EU have been small countries, prompting reforms to try and prevent the most egregious imbalance. Thus the current system is that you need 55% of member states representing at least 65% of the population for most legislation. For particularly sensitive issues (such as membership or… Brexit), you need unanimity. Which is why the UK can’t ignore Ireland, no matter how much they’d like to.

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#3318

Not to mention the various mechanisms that work on unanimous Council consent (topically including Article 50 extension), or by votes from other representatives of member without population wegighting.

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#3319

That’s what I meant. Stop the process. Decide what we actually want. Lay the ground work. Serve the notice.

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#3320

A problem created, or at least highlighted by brexit.

I am referring to the supposed problems people raised as reasons to leave the EU.

Like people thinking Turkey was going to join imminently and we’d be swamped by 80 million brown fanatics. - - > fact check and get Boris Johnson etc to apologise for this on TV.

Like people thinking Eastern Europeans are benefits scroungers and job stealers (sometimes at the same time…!) - - > expose the facts and tighten up the system

Like people concerned the NHS is being over run by European health tourists - - > I suspect the real numbers will show more brits as health tourists abroad than vice versa and will also show that the NHS is simply badly run and wasteful.

Like the fisheries industry getting a bad deal - - > define a good deal for us and go fight for it.

My central point remains that there is ALOT we could and should have done and be doing as a country that is more productive but more challenging than playing the blame the EU game.

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#3321

Ah, I completely misunderstood. Sorry about that!

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#3322

No drama. It was easy to misunderstand what I was saying.

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#3323

The UK knows what it wants, it’s just not on offer.

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#3324

It does?

No-one I have spoken to in person seems to have a coherent detailed idea or be able to say anything more interesting or useful than “take back control of our laws and borders”

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#3325

All that we like about the EU, none of what we dislike. 😂

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#3326

They want to be in the EU and sovereign at the same time. They want free movement of only the right people, for mutable definitions of right. They want all of the beneficial EU privileges and regulations and none of the bad ones.

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#3327

Hmm, that sounds to me that Brexiteers DO know what they want: “take back control of our laws and borders” but that many don’t want to pay the price for that, which is losing all the advantages of being in the EU. “Taking back control” sounds nice but it means taking the UK out of the EU, out of the EU legal, economic and regulatory system, which means giving up all the good (lack of tariffs, international mobility and purchasing, etc.) along with the “bad”.

There is simply no way the EU is going to let the UK have all the good aspects of the EU with the UK having some kind of unilateral veto over anything the UK doesn’t like. There’s no way to “take back control” without giving up all the benefits.

So it seems to me that is the essential conundrum: what the Brexiteers want comes with a heavy price they don’t want to pay. There is a group of Brexiteers who seem to be willing to the pay the price (or who live in denial there will be one) and want a No Deal Brexit but a lot just seem to keep thinking that they can magically somehow have their cake and eat it too.

For the people who somehow against all logic seem to think the UK can leave the EU without giving up the benefits, how does that work? How do they think a Brexit that doesn’t leave the UK out in the cold works? Also, how on Earth do they think they can persuade the EU to agree to that? What are they going to offer? They don’t want to pay the price of being outside the economic union, so what possibly could they offer to persuade the EU to give them special preference over the other 30+ member nations? How does that chain of illogic even work?

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#3328

Brexiteers who think this also believe the UK is holding all the cards, that the EU needs them more than the UK does, and that May is just doing a terrible job at negotiating.

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#3329

So it’s pure fantasy “alternate facts” type of thinking, based on nationalist sentiment?

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#3330

From what purely anecdotal evidence I’ve read on message boards, Quora, etc, it does seem like those who understand the ramifications of leaving and accept that there will be consequences and a hit to their standard of living do exist, but are in the minority. As for the rest, yes.

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