Sharpe
3805
What’s really screwed here is I just don’t see any way forward for the UK that doesn’t lead to either economic problems, political chaos so severe it might give rise to civil strife, or some combination. Every single option seems to have extremely negative consequences.
Very much agree with this. I think part of what you are seeing is a bunch of remain supporters who have major concerns about the EU now putting aside those concerns to keep the main prize.
Merkel’s arrogance over immigration has caused a lot of damage across the EU but in the UK particularly.
This is definitely me.
I’m sad to see it characterised as arrogance. I see Merkel’s reaction to the refugee crisis as her finest moment.
I agree, she was both humane and realistic. The immigration debate in the EU many times forgets that we need significant more immigration than we are getting if we are to keep our welfare state operative.
Agree 100%. Merkel’s reaction is one of the few truly humane responses shown by any world leader in decades; putting heart before cold-blooded calculation in politics. Surprising too, considering who we’re talking about.
Yeah I think that describes me.
EU needs some reforms, at the very least being much more transparent about what they do and how and why, else localised radicals will take control of the narrative. It’s far to easy to blame the faceless bureaucrats for whatever happens, than it is to sort your own life out.
We see the narrative being shifted already, for example in places like Italy, and even Germany.
I never thought I’d see a party in Germany that was deliberately against immigration…
I must confess to being one of those who was surprised and confused by her willingness to so abruptly and suddenly take in some 1 million extra people, and give them citizenship not just of Germany, but of the EU by extension.
I can also easily see how people might not be happy with that.
I also thought accepting so many countries into the EU all at once back in 2005 etc was a bit too much too soon.
1 million ontop of a 500 million population is nothing, but it was and is a gift to any party even slightly concerned about immigration, and immigration being the polarising subject that it is, means in effect that it was a gift to somewhat extremist parties.
They weren’t granted citizenship.
My impression was that they weren’t granted it immediately, but that they will be getting it sooner or later.
Anyway I was in Germany at the time, and at one of the bus or train stations, I came across a group of the refugees.
It changes your perspective somewhat when you see people, not numbers.
I bought some of them some McDonald’s.
I wasn’t trying to kill them honestly, just that I was there in the queue, getting served, so I bought some extra and gave it away.
From 2015 to 2050 we will need about 50 million more working age people in Europe to keep current population balance. This is about 1.4 million immigrants into the EU each year, on average, which is actually about the real net immigration rate.
I know you agree, but it is good to spell this out time and again, because the reality is not only that immigration is a short term economic positive, but also a necessity mid and long term. Anti immigration rhetoric makes no sense, unless you are to magically raise birthrates.
Well, that raises the question of why are birthrates so low, and why is it an issue?
For example, if everyone is living healthy lives until their eighties, then what does old mean, and shouldn’t pensions etc be reformed?
But I think that is for another thread.
Old people generally stop working (ie, retirement), but they require lots of services, particularly medical ones. This is especially in countries with strong social safety nets.
The money to fund those comes from the people who are working (ie, young people).
When there are tons of old people, and much smaller numbers of younger people, then it’s impossible to maintain the standards that previous generations received.
It means “Carousel Begins!”
spiffy
3818
No kidding! I imagine if there was implemented a ‘Logan’s Run’ type solution for even a cut-off at age 60, we’d see savings of upwards of 70% in the health care system. Is it inhumane to ask 70-80 year olds to stop sucking ressources away from the young? I don’t know. Back only a hundred years, people were ecstatic to live to 60. Another hundred years and it was forty.
No, there’s only one body of people who saw that as “arrogance” and there’s some photos upthread of them throwing one armed salutes.
Aceris
3820
There was a lot of disagreement with it in Merkel’s own party. Are you saying the Nazis are in power in Germany? :)
DUP are still “No” (of course, it’s what they do best). Which means the ERG are almost certainly still no. So she may not even try to to get MV3 past Bercow.
Ethno-nationalism is just that. Be is soft, white glove ethno-nationalism or the more traditional saluting flavours.
It’s not immigration that is a threat to civilisation and the West, it is far right ethno-nationalism. Brexit not Mohammad split the UK and set its people on each other. Brexit is ruinous and degenerate and the real threat to this country and its the result of the hard right nationalists
Refugees in Germany have to wait an average of about 7 years, and even then have to meet certain requirements, before they are awarded citizenship. After that they can apply for a passport. But to say the Germans just “created 1 million citizens and inflicted them on the EU” is pure populist nonsense
Miramon
3824
May currently says there are no votes for her plan, so it looks like the EU insistence on a vote before a deferral will be problematic.
