In those numbers? No. Immigrants from poorer countries return on average 50%. Emigration of nationals to outside the EU is much lower.
Aceris
3866
Letting Juncker in did a lot of damage to the perception of the EU in the UK. Arguably did more damage then the migration thing - even if Merkel hadn’t allowed the refugees in the crisis would have continued and could easily have been used by brexiteers to generate racist sentiment. Letting Juncker in made it very easy to portray the EU as a corrupt old boys club, and also made a mockery of claims of British influence in the EU.
But if you let them into Schengen they can travel and claim asylum anywhere in Schengen.
That’s not as crazy or unprecedented as you would think. Germany had a non citizen guestworker program until the 70s, and the path to citizenship for former Gastearbeiter was not a smooth one. Even their children born in Germany pre-2000 were legally discriminated against in terms of citizenship rights. It’s true German attitudes have changed tremendously over the last 30 years, so maybe this isn’t a thing any more.
I speculate that Syrian refugees might want to return less than most other immigrant categories.
In any case it’s clear from the treaties that it was a German decision, not an EU decision, and I agree in the grand scheme of things it affects the other Schengen states very little.
No you pretty much got it. She unilaterally decided to admit a large number of EU citizens to equal many countries entire populations countries, she did not ask her equal partners she flexed her countries clout. The other error she made was encouraging people to leave processing countries and instead skip to Germany without process. That was and is a terrible idea causing much confusion for the already beleaguered border states.
That’s a big deal and as I say arrogant.
I dont deny her intentions were good nor do I say that these people should have been thrown out. What I say is that in her desire to help, she acted arrogantly and forgot to consider other impacted friends and allies.
@Aceris interesting on the guestworker program! Thanks for the info!
Yeah, they were already into Schengen in that case. All Germany did was allow them to move there and claim asylum there.
Technically, illegal immigrants (which refugees are until they claim asylum) do not have freedom of movement in the EU either. That’s how refugee camps come to be.
The Letwin amendment has passed. At least 3 ministers resigned to vote for it.
Which one is that? It gets so confusing :)
Edit: thats the one May opposed which is basically Parliament shoving her out of the drivers seat for a bit and taking control.
How something driven by a few hundred MP’s is going to be better than the Executive is something we will find out but it sounds like its going to be chaotic.
Aceris
3871
I’m confused by that - I was sure I saw news reports of states not allowing the refugees to cross the border. How would they have the facilities to police that within Schengen?
Ah well, I was wrong.
Oh, they were trying to stop the crossings. And failing.
Germany’s decision did not change any border policy, since it was an internal German decision. Those people were already in or would have gone in anyway.
Croatia is not Schengen, but the others are.
Aceris
3874
If the 30 Tory rebels had half the spine of the ERG we would have had a GE in December. Then again I didn’t realize how utterly hopeless(*) May was until quite recently.
(*: I mean, I knew she was out of her depth, but it’s a matter of scale.)
I dont see how the house deals with this. We need a new executive, but there are plenty who don’t want to put Corbyn in. The sensible thing to do would be to install a Blairite or Ken Clarke or someone as an interim leader to implement whatever soft brexit / 2nd ref policy the house wants, and then hold a GE once the legislation and A50 extension is in place.
This idea that parliament can direct the executive is utterly toxic. MPs are imagining they can vote for some outcome and make May and the Tories pay the price, abetted by journalists and Remainer QCs indulging in motivated reasoning.
The traditional solution would be a general election, but that’s hardly appealing for the tories because:
- Half their own voters would see it as throwing away a chance at no deal.
- She would have to step down (which she doesn’t want to do), and the Tories don’t have a good way to replace her on a short timescale.
- The Tory party has to achieve a meaningful Brexit (i.e. not CU + SM), because failing to do so would force them to keep campaigning on Brexit forever.
Yeah same. They really blew it when they had a chance to dump her (May).
also @Juan_Raigada hey thanks for all the detail responses! Educational and good stuff. I hope I explained my position a little more as well.
The reporting on what was actually happening was atrocious.
Beckett falls 3 votes short.
This is super interesting. It’s almost like a reversion to the days before party politics,
when the Commons contested directly with the Crown. The Speaker becomes very important in setting the agenda.
Aceris
3879
Beckett was so stupid. “Let’s keep kicking no deal forward forever, the EU will totally agree to that right?”
Not to reignite this but I agree with you, for her personally as a matter of conscience. But not as much for others impacted by her decision.
To paraphrase the philosopher Toulmin “if you are going to be a saint your moral position is a lot clearer if you are not married with six kids”, IE: the people you already have an obligation to also should be considered.
After reading the responses I think my phrasing was inflammatory “overly hasty” may have been a better way of saying it than “arrogant”.
Heck yeah :) I am going to be feasting on this the whole week!
ok, last bit of the megpost,
Sir Vince Cable , the Lib Dem leader, asks Bercow if he will set up a committee to ensure that the indicative votes process runs smoothly on Wednesday.
Bercow says Oliver Letwin will take charge of the process, and he says he is sure Letwin will want to ensure it runs properly.
Welcome leader Letwin! :)
Sharpe
3881
So British politics has progressed from a Clown Car to a Clown Bus, complete with the Clowns throwing out the Driver and driving the bus themselves?
Lmao, but yes.
Also thank god, Corbyn has finally seen the light, or at least now sees its the best net vote winner.
Here is the full text of what Jeremy Corbyn said in his point of order a moment ago.
Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the house for taking control.
The government’s approach has been an abject failure and this house must now find a solution.
So I pay tribute to [Oliver Letwin and Hilary Benn] and others, who have worked to achieve tonight’s result.
The government must take this process seriously. We do not know what the house will decide on Wednesday. But I know there are many members of this house who have been working for alternative solutions, and we must debate those to find a consensus.
And this house must also consider whether any deal should be put to the people for a confirmatory vote.
Where this government has failed, this house must, and I believe will, succeed.
Oghier
3883
That sounds like, “Our supporters mostly hate the idea of a second referendum, but we probably need one. We can blame May.” Is that a good read?
Aceris
3884
His party’s supporters love the idea of a second referendum. He personally hates it.
RichVR
3885
So very much like the Trump Whitehouse?
