draxen
4287
I strongly disagree.
But that’s OK :)
Timex
4288
Why would your suggested “skills based immigration” result in some different localization of immigrants?
I don’t think you are racist, @draxen, but it is true the arguments you use are so close to xenophonic arguments that are hard to disentangle from their views (I know there are differences, specially in vehemence, and they are significant, but also it’s walking a fine line and close to justifying some of those arguments). “Protecting local culture” is problematic to defend without assuming a moral superiority of that culture over the external ones (because it implies assimilation/integration is better than coexistence). It’s a culturally reactionary worldview that focuses the rejection to change in the influence of “external” cultures. Case by case I think it’s an argument that can be made (specific communities and specific cultural issues) but a generalization is problematic.
For example, perhaps the worst problem regarding racism here in Spain is the Spanish Roma community. They frequently live in their own communities, speaking their own language and interacting little with non-Roma (although I believe Spanish Roma are some of the better integrated, they are sadly not that integrated and still heavily marginalized). The argument against them is precisely that they don’t integrate nor relate to non-Roma that frequently, but that’s a racist argument. They are as Spanish as everybody else, with their families here for centuries, and if they are not integrated and marginalized it’s actually everybody’s fault. Their culture is now as Spanish as more “traditional” Spanish culture and we are a richer country with that community than if they were “integrated”.
The argument of avoiding “pockets” of cultural differentiation is only different in that the Spanish Roma are full right nationals with along history of citizenship and thus no “newcomers”, so it’s much harder to justify “rationaly” and the xenophobic roots of the argument are thus easier to grasp.
draxen
4290
It may reduce numbers to levels where integration is more likely to occur.
magnet
4291
Like British expats in Spain?
Would you favor a system in which only English people with sufficient skills were allowed to move to Scotland or Wales? You know, to prevent the potential negative impact in their new home?
draxen
4292
I would not favor skill based immigration in the United Kingdom because we are supposed to be a United Kingdom :)
Would be terrible for me. Free movement of people and failing that the chance to remain in the EU are the only two things I want.
We shall see, Corbyn isnt going to get all of Labour if he goes against party policy.
Timex
4294
Why do you believe that you would encounter higher rates of “integration” in such a situation?
Also, I feel the need to point out that throughout American history, we have always had enclaves of immigrants in our cities (many of which continue to exist to this day, decades or a century after their initial formation), and yet over time this has never resulted in a failure to integrate.
Such communities tend to provide support structure for new immigrants, many of whom did not speak english well enough to operate independently. However, in essentially ALL cases, the first generation born in the country spoke fluent english and was fully integrated into American society.
So I’m skeptical that your position here has any rational merit.
magnet
4295
Yes, and you are supposed to be in the European Union. So if limiting non-native influence is worth escaping the EU, why isn’t it worth dissolving the UK?
draxen
4296
Wow, many replies. I’ll try to answer as best I can…
Fwiw I have always found your perspective quite reasonable even if we disagree. As an immigrant myself I understand there can be nuance around the argument and issue.
I simply don’t care. All I see is a giant crowd of people, many of which are overt racists. Why should I have to ask each and every one why they are standing on the other side of the line and next to someone who wants to cleanse me from my own country? He voted because of immigration. They voted because of immigration. They could not have succeeded without each other.
The ultra-Brexiters in the UK are overt racists. Every forum and socmedia channel is filled with them. If you stand with these people I will treat you like one of them. Who asks each and every MAGA cap wearer why they are still wearing MAGA caps?
wavey
4299
Hoping that access to / close alignment with single market would inevitably lead to freedom of movement being part of any final deal.
Access to single market will require freedom of movement, it’s part of the package. Single Market means EEA or a special bilateral agreement including freedom of movement.
That’s why I don’t think it’s going to fly.
2 years of Labour Remainers yelling “you can’t have your cake and eat it too” at Corbyn has resulted in his final masterplan involving cake, and eating it.
My kingdom for an opposition.
WTF? Why did the title change?
wavey
4304
Labour were whipped to support a Brexit option that included freedom of movement on Monday. I think they accept it will be part of SM access, so I’m not sure this is cakeism.
Respectfully, this is where I think the argument goes off the rails. Saying lots of unqualified immigrants don’t e.g. help increase GDP or or wealth or whatever might nominally be a non-racist argument, but saying lots of people who are different immigrating and congregating in one place and remaining different is bad sure sounds like it might be a racist argument.
