Brexit, aka, the UK Becomes a Clown Car of the Highest Order

[Timex]

Yes, after three generations or so, immigrant groups integrate (and enrich society in the process). In other words, “just wait for 50 to 100 years and it will all sort itself out.” Most people aren’t interested in waiting that long.

It doesn’t take three generations. It generally takes a single generation.

What are the negative things that you believe are going to occur in the meantime?

[scottagibson]

There are plenty of people who felt genuinely harmed by EU migration.

I think a few minutes reflection should reveal how empty an argument that is. If I were to say a lot of people genuinely feel harmed by vaccinations, you probably wouldn’t take the argument very seriously, because how they feel is subjective and says nothing about whether they ought to feel that way.

As electors in a democracy, I think they’re entitled to have a say in how much and how fast their country should change.

How about their city? Should Londoners be able to keep other UK citizens out because of how they feel? If not, why not? Why is it a good policy at the national level, but not at the municipal or neighborhood one?

[Fifth_Fret]

Cooper’s bill just passed by a single vote.

[Ginger_Yellow]

I think he means examples such as the heavy concentration of Poles in the Ealing Broadway and west Ealing areas of London (there are apparently 911,000 poles living in Britain) or parts of East London where English is a minority language.

And yet Ealing voted Remain by 60% to 40%. Funnily enough, openness to immigration is pretty directly proportional to the actual level of immigration in a given area. The places most hostile to immigration are those that have had some, but only a little.

[aeneas]

Can I have the idiots guide to the cooper bill please?

[vyshka]

So they won’t do a no-deal brexit, and if they can’t agree on a deal and hit the deadline, then what? Did all Western democracies hand off their governing to idiots?

[scottagibson]

Cooper amendment requires that the government seek an article 50 extension rather than permit a no deal Brexit.

[aeneas]

Thanks

[vyshka]

And what happens if they don’t get the article 50 extension?

[scottagibson]

Crash and burn. I didn’t say it was foolproof.

[vyshka]

So it doesn’t really change much of anything from the sounds of it. They have already been going to the EU to get extensions to avoid a no-deal brexit. I guess this just puts it in writing?

[scottagibson]

I think it prevents May from effectively choosing that a no-deal Brexit is better than the alternative, and I think that was the goal.

[Menzo]

So we are left with this:
The reasons given to be fearful of immigration, are not rational. They are not based in fact. They contradict historical experience.

That means that the rational course of action is to reevaluate those beliefs and fears surrounding immigration

Don’t forget that we have entered the post-factual world of “alternative facts.” As long as people believe that something is true, even if it is factually untrue, it’s apparently true and we must respect their feelings.

[ShivaX]

Reality relativism.

[Alstein]

Who are they going to vote for instead- the Ljb Dems?

[Synth]

I hold points of view on many things that I don’t have immediately supporting data for. I don’t know what else to say…

A good place to start for data is probably the Bradford riots. More specifically, the reports that were commissioned. Pretty much all of them cited integration as a major issue. It was so bad in some places that segregation basically existed.

That said, its probably not a worthwhile discussion at this point. As you’re finding, its hard to talk about integration without people equating it with racism. :)

[Timex]

As you’re finding, its hard to talk about integration without people equating it with racism. :)

Party of this, is because “integration” often means an expectation for immigrants to abandon their own culture entirely, and adopt the “correct” native culture. This has, historically, often focused on things like religion, with a major cudgel nativists in America used against immigrant groups, was their Catholicism.

[playingwithknives]

I guess my post about deconstructing opposition to immigration to its root core causes proved a point.

Incidentally I’ve been quite careful to not accuse anyone here of racism directly, but made it more about empowerment and enablement of racism and far right. (It’s not about why they are wearing a MAGA hat, but that they are wearing a MAGA hat, and standing in a crowd of MAGA hat wearers)

Any gravedigging has been done voluntarily.

[Mark_Weston]

I think a few minutes reflection should reveal how empty an argument that is. If I were to say a lot of people genuinely feel harmed by vaccinations , you probably wouldn’t take the argument very seriously, because how they feel is subjective and says nothing about whether they ought to feel that way.

It’s like you didn’t really read my post and decided to focus on a single word when writing a reply. I cited specific actual harms and you completely ignored them.

[playingwithknives]

There is no harm from immigration. Unless “harm” is societal bigotry, xenophobia, stereotyping, racism etc.

I now think the solution to mass immigration is mass emigration. If the white working class can’t adapt to a UK economy they can emigrate and look for work like my family did. I’m sure the upcoming wave of middle and upper class wealth in Asia and Africa would love the raised standing from a subservient white immigrant class acting as their staff and lackeys. They can raise the kids, clean their houses, drive their cars, wait in restaurants etc.