4889

Again, I can only speak anecdotally but…

It entirely depends on your perspective. Leave voters believe Brexit will be a positive outcome for the country. As in “we are doing what is best for the UK”. They generally don’t believe that it will cause catastrophe for the economy (at least in the long term) and/or that the risk of the UK dissolving is remote.

Brexit is a strange issue in that the country (not just the Tory party) have become increasingly polarized. It’s like some kind of cold war with an ever increasing ratcheting up of tension.

I’ve been listening to lots of political pundits recently from both sides and (as someone with family who are on both sides of the debate) I’m always amazed at how each side views the other. It’s like they have some kind of distorted view of each other.

I think it’s all too easy to slip into the view of politics as a good vs. evil battle but in my opinion it’s just not the case. It’s just groups of people with different views of the world.

Interestingly, there is a possibility that biology may affect political ideology :)

4890

Remember all the Steve Bannon links? Upthread?

Nothing can be more Trumpian than describing Bannon/Farage/Johnsons brand of far right ethno-nationalism as “an ideology you don’t agree with”

Too fucking right I don’t agree with the far right nationalism. No fucking shit.

4891

We’ve already discussed this at length so I’ll make this my last post on the subject.

I do think that many politicians are careerist and untrustworthy but I’m not convinced they’re guilty of facilitating some kind of nefarious racist plot. I believe such things are merely conspiracy theories. You may well ask me what do I think of the moon landings being faked or the existence of alien abductions.

4892

I’m talking about the polling above. A majority of Conservatives think Brexit should happen even if it destroys the country and their party. That’s a bizarre ideology by any measure.

4893

At a guess I’d say it’s just a reflection of the polarization of the issue. The results are somewhat distorted due to the current strength of feeling. I don’t think this is specific to the Tories though but to everyone on both sides of the divide. Everyone has gone a bit Brexit-crazy :)
EDIT: including myself :)

4894

So what? If you’re so ‘polarized’ that you want to blow up the world, who should care that it’s because you’re ‘polarized’.

Really? Are there polls with similar results among remainers? I doubt it.

4895

I don’t know of any offhand but it would be interesting to see the results.

4896

Tory party membership is tiny, of course, compared to the voters. And I doubt representative.

That ‘just’ is doing an awful lot of work! A political party with an ideology you don’t agree with can range from benign to terrifying.

4897

Draxen… speaking from the rest of the world - it most definitely appears to be white nationalism is reason #1 for Brexit. Once the whole “more money for NHS” lie was blown the real deal became apparent. #2 reason for Brexit is a grab for power for those that want it. It will enrich the wealthy that participate and impoverish the middle class and make the poor even worse off.

I don’t know how to say this any nicer… but you are in denial. You should have jumped ship when you saw the forces in charge (the brexit bus fiasco and the hose of other blatant lies). Your continual research is your moral code ping-ponging around as you desperately try to validate your continued position. As an ethically minded person it appears you’re searching to find the truth, but don’t want to close that last parenthesis on the algorithm. 2+2 = 3 darn it, if I try it a few hundred more ways I"m sure it can work! :)

Yes @playingwithknives is singular focused to a fault and does not leave any room for other version of Brexit. But the reality is Brexit for those in power pushing Brexit was about 2 things. White nationalism and consolidating power/money for the richest people in Britain (including Russian oligarchs - don’t forget this was Russia’s wish as well).

You were played fine sir. It’s just a matter of when will you see it for what it is? I guarantee - those in power in charge of Brexit will gut your country to enrich themselves and sell it for scrap. We’re seeing that happen in the US so I’m speaking from experience. We will be suffering for decades if not more, to clean up the financial mess trump has dropped this country into. He knows it too, which is why he constantly screams about the “now”. He is setting us up for a fall of calamitous proportions and continue to destroy the middle class and the poor so the rich can carve out more of what’s left for themselves.

If you plan on being alive and healthy in 20 years, maybe re-evaluate what you’re supporting… it’s not what you think.

4898

Is it possible that you could be viewing UK politics through a lens of your own local political environment. I know from experience how difficult it can be to avoid this.

Personally I never took much notice of either the Leave or Remain assertions during the referendum. It was already understood that this was a political campaign. They were both pushing an agenda and their information was heavily biased.

Euroscepticism in the UK is not a new issue. The UK has always been a somewhat reluctant member. It’s just that with the referendum the issue has come to a head

“Levels of support for the EU have historically been lower in the UK than most other member states. UK citizens are the least likely to feel a sense of European identity, and national sovereignty is also seen as more important to British people than that of people from other EU nations.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom

I appreciate your post and I take it in good faith but you’re projecting something onto me that doesn’t exist. Brexit simply sparked an increased interest in politics not some search for moral truth :)

EDIT:

I’m actually center-left in economics - so I disagree with many of the Tories neoliberalist policies. A complaint I hear frequently is that no party accurately reflects my views at the moment - I’m definitely in this camp.

4899

Have you guys seen this one yet? :)

4900

Wasn’t the entire Brexit vote to actually settle the “remain” stance once and for all (Cameron who had no intention of leaving the EU), which was then co-opted by the likes of Nigel Farage, Russia, and Xenophobes to basically make it their own?

With Trump wanting you to do it too shows it’s the wrong thing to do. Everything he backs is poison to everyone except the rich and pyscho. I can totally understand the want for less bureaucracy, more sovereignty - but you aren’t in charge of your own destiny with the players at hand. You’re just passing yourself from the EU to another group of people with their own interests that are not aligned with the rest of Britain.

4901

If by once and for all you mean for the next general election, then yes.

4902

^^

The EU question has been unsettled in the UK since the EC/EEC existed, and the EU question will remain unsettled regardless of what happens next. That’s just English politics for you.

4903

With Murdoch having such a grip on your country through its media entities, I don’t think you actually have the level of Democracy you think you do, because people are stupid and can’t think for themselves. The influence power of his industries is incalculable. Speaking from experience as Fox News has been the cancer that poisoned our political system and has driven our country into the shitter. Fox News opened the door for all the other right-wing psycho entities that exist today. They are full-on propaganda machines, and if you think you have Democracy when a sizable percentage of people are exposed to continuous propaganda, you don’t know human nature.

4904

What grip on the UK do you think Murdoch has?

4905

Boris Johnson writings:

Described Scots as “tartan dwarves” who were “polluting our stock” and suggested that the country should be turned into a “ghetto” with the inhabitants submitted for “extermination.”

I was wrong about it being just white nationalism. It is “English Nationalism” with no care for the Scots, Welsh, or the Irish.

That is language straight out of the Hitler playbook. People should be ashamed and disgusted by him.

4906

Boris wasn’t the author :)
Although he was the editor of the magazine it was published in. It was a satirical poem.

Boris, like all such PM candidates for as long back as I can remember is currently under sustained attack in the media. It seems that he has many faults, most of which are probably well documented but that isn’t one of them.

4907

What kind of magazine?

4908

The type of magazine that if it was American, Ben Shapiro would be writing for it.