5638

Well, they frequently gripe that liberals want to restrict guns and limit development of large areas of public land (in the West, at least).

I happen to agree with those policies, but I can understand why some people think they “hurt”.

5639

Libruls want to murder babies, which they think their mythical sky-daddy doesn’t like, but if they actually cracked open a Bible and read it (Numbers chapter 5), they’d realize he’s totally fine with it.

5640

What’s ironic about the last couple of pages of off topic nonsense is that true liberals in the UK are pointing at exactly the same polls, with knowing winks, not because they like Boris (reader, they do not) but because it’s evidence of how awful Corbyn is.

But draxen is on the “wrong side”, so you go off on a multi post rant about conservatives as a result of someone posting exactly the same thing the liberals on UK twitter are…

5641

If I’m not mistaken, I’m pretty sure all the liberals here dislike Corbyn at least half as much as Boris. It’s all degrees. If 100% of Tory positions are awful and only 50% of Labour positions are awful, you despise them both to the degree of awfulness they are. You despise Labour not as much because at least there is some good in them compared to the alternative.

Honestly, it kinda seems like there’s no longer a good Liberal, Democratic party left in the UK with any representation. The SNP seems to have the best values. But isn’t that exclusive to just Scotland?

5642

I’m pretty sure it’s the ‘knowing winks’ that are provoking people. Maybe it’s just how text comes across. But I agree it’s not a good reason for the reactions here. Taking apparent glee in Boris “No Deal” Johnson securing a majority isn’t something I’m happy to see, but I don’t see the point in ranting at someone for it, either.

Anyway, maybe we can discuss facts rather than all winding each other up? On the subjects of polls, pre-election polling can sometimes lead to surprising outcomes. Theresa May had a pretty strong polling lead at the last general election, I seem to recall. I’m not at all sure what the outcome of a 2019 GE would be.

5643

I get multiparty systems etc, but it’s quite hard for me to see 32% support as a very ringing endorsement for Boris.

5644

If true liberals would rather have Boris, then they deserve the awful fucking they’re about to get. The other people don’t, though, and that’s the pity.

5645

SNP values aren’t so hot, except to the extent that Scottish values are on average better than English values.

5646

Draxens and the Brexiters endgame is the ethnic cleansing of me and my family from this country.

Again, you might think its something to have an effete conversation and a cup of tea about, but those of us at the top of the list realised that polite conversation and facts were ignored during the referendum in favour of racist propaganda and hatemongering and the time for talk is long past. We’re faced with a known liar/unethical/immoral megalomaniac who will do anything to stay in power, and that includes empowering and enabling the worst of the UK far right ultranationalists.

Demands for civility when dealing with the far right and ethno-nationalism is Trumpian.

5647

I’m currently on holiday in Northern Ireland. It’s beautiful, I love it here - you can’t drive for ten minutes in any direction without encountering a spectacular view of the landscape. But while I’ve been here, there has been a bomb attack in Fermanagh, the fifth attempt to kill police this year. When I was last here, at Easter, the journalist Lyra McKee was murdered by the New IRA, shot while observing a riot.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that the peace here is fragile. It won’t survive a hard border, which will be caused by a No Deal. The backstop isn’t some EU trick to keep the UK in Europe, it’s necessary to stop a return to the violence of 20 - 50 years ago.

And the maddening thing is that those supporting No Deal blithely do not give one solitary fuck about any of it. For them, it’s just a price worth paying for whatever they imagine to be the upside of Brexit. News they can tune out because it’s happening across the Irish Sea. Just utterly callous.

5648

The more Irish that die, the more smileys we’ll see from the Brexiters.

5649

I remember The Troubles during the 80s/90s although I was in the UK and not Ireland. I regard the GFA with the seriousness it deserves.

Every side, the EU, Ireland and the UK (including May and Johnson) have repeatedly stated there will be no hard border because they’re not crazy - nobody wants to see a return of the violence.

5650

Ok, but have they provided any actual feasible and realistic options in the case of a hard Brexit? Particularly the UK, as EU & Irelands solution probably would be to just not have a Brexit in the first place.

5651

I think the most logical solution would be to have a sea border. The EU proposed this and I expect May would have agreed to it but she was boxed in by the DUP. I think it’s possible this solution might be floated again if Boris can obtain a majority that doesn’t rely on the DUP and NI agreed to it with a referendum.

They’ve also floated “alternate arrangements” which are many and varied.

5652

These are all things you would need a deal for. In the case of No Deal, how precisely do you avoid a hard border becoming a legal reality on Nov 1?

5653

Unionist violence is a thing too. But this is neither here nor there: what will happen in the event of no-deal in October, that Johnson keeps threatening?

And imaginative, and bold! I can think of a great many adjectives.

The one you linked appears to try to solve the border problem by adding more borders, which doesn’t seem entirely thought through. It also doesn’t address current policy of leaving in October with no deal.

5654

They government have laid out a plan for this:

5655

I like how the plan on a failure of negotiations is to pretend nothing has changed and return to negotiations.

5656

It’s a solution that prevents a return of violence and provides time for further negotiation.

It’s a matter of perspective. If you think Brexit is a positive outcome for the country then more time for negotiation is acceptable as the UK will have already left the EU (making it very difficult to rejoin). If you think Brexit is a negative outcome then it’s a crazy solution as the status quo is vastly preferable.

5657

It’s admission that there is no solution that can maintain UK wide independent trade policy with an open border. Leaving the border open ruins all that talk of an independent trade policy.

(And if Europe leave it open, it similarly wrecks the single market. So goodness knows what happens then.)