Negotiation in pursuit of what? What is the actual, non-bullshit solution to the problem of the Irish border which preserves the GFA? The GFA relies on the free movement of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The Brexit you want ends the free movement of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland. They’re fundamentally incompatible.
It’s actually a worse solution than the backstop, because the backstop is an actual legal agreement that regulates what happens. What the UK government claims is… not.
An open border would be a breach of WTO rules by both the UK and the EU and would be shut down pretty much instantly by companies waiting to exploit such a stupidly huge hole in UK/EU trade policies.
draxen
5660
See my above post. I just listed 2. Sea border + alternate arrangements.
It’s better than the backstop because we’re not stuck in it. It’s a temporary arrangement until something better can be negotiated.
Yes, that’s why I asked for the non-bullshit solution. Alternative arrangements is the bullshit solution, which is why you can’t say anything more clear about it than ‘alternative solutions’. It’s like you’re saying ‘the other thing’. What keeps people and goods from moving across the border freely?
draxen
5662
Read the link, do a Google search - there are lots of articles on possible alternative arrangements. It’s up to you whether you think they are viable or not.
The backstop is also temporary - unless nothing better can be found.
draxen
5664
“Both the EU and UK say the Irish backstop is intended to be temporary, and it would be if an alternative agreement was reached to take its place. But the government’s legal advice says if this doesn’t happen, it would endure indefinitely.”
https://fullfact.org/europe/backstop-permanent-or-temporary/
So there is a risk that we could get stuck in it if negotiations break down.
I read the link. It’s a bullshit solution. It’s just hand-waving at the miracle behind the curtain.
That’s true of your own temporary solution, isn’t it? Or are you saying that if, in a year or three, the UK can’t come up with any viable alternative, they’ll scrap their own temporary backstop, close the border and fuck the GFA?
Sure. But if there’s an obvious solution, why would negotiations breakdown?
draxen
5667
In your opinion…
I’m not an expert in trade negotiation. It is possible that (excluding a sea border) an agreement is impossible to reach. I find it unlikely though - I think it’s more likely an agreement can and will be reached because it’s in the best interests of all parties.
It’s the difference between being stuck in a legal agreement and being able to act unilaterally. The aim is not to get stuck legally.
wavey
5668
Surprised, then, the UK is finding it so difficult to suggest an acceptable backstop replacement in the face of all these many viable solutions.
draxen
5669
I’m not surprised at all. You have multiple different parties with opposing interests. Whatever happens it will have to be a compromise that is palatable for all parties. What’s the old saying, a good compromise is one that leaves all parties unsatisfied.
Yup, that’s definitely the takeaway from the last two years.
You don’t have to be. The issue isn’t negotiation. It’s a simple question, really: If the goal is to end free movement of goods and people between the EU and the UK, you can’t keep the border open. If you want to leave the border open, then you can’t prevent free movement of goods and people. So which are you for?
Describe the function of the border in the post-Brexit final state you imagine, in clear language.
Your hero Johnson knows this is bullshit. All the Brexit leaders know it. They’re just conning you.
Which is a mealy-mouthed way of saying yes, when the magical bullshit alternative solution evaporates, I would close the border and fuck the GFA.
draxen
5672
It’s a negotiation. We’re still talking about a peacetime trade negotiation. For what it’s worth here’s the latest whitepaper.
Here’s my description of it in clear language:
A complex negotiation.
Yes, I know you can link a report. What I doubt is that you can articulate what it says, in your own plain language.
See what I mean?
BTW, the goal of that paper seems to be free movement of people and goods across the Ireland / Northern Ireland border. It does some hand waving, but basically if you can enter Ireland you can enter the UK. Similarly, if you can enter Northern Ireland you can enter Ireland. Is that the Brexit control of immigration you had in mind?
draxen
5674
My preferred option would be a sea border. However, it’s possible NI will not agree and so I’d consider the merits of a compromise. The white paper outlines an agreement between the UK/IE whereby one could refuse entry to the other.
Isn’t the backstop a sea border? Is that not what you mean?
Cormac
5676
Just kick Northern Ireland out of the UK and let it merge with Ireland.
Problem solved.
Yes, I’m guessing some people will pursue that solution with regrettable vigor.
