6282

It’s a matter of perspective. Both camps believe they are acting for the common good. Remain believe they are protecting their country from what they view as a harmful act. Leave views the referendum result as valid and the efforts to undermine and frustrate the result as a harmful act. We’ve argued each side ad nauseam.

Brexit politics has reached even more farcical levels - I think we can all agree on that. We now have an unelected Prime Minister and a zombie Parliament. The UK is being run by parties who lost the election.

6283

Because it’s not about right or wrong or democracy, it’s all about “owning the libs”. Blatant self-sabotage for the dumbest of political reason. You’re seeing a textbook example of it in this thread.

6284

Yes, yes of course. That’s why the country is still split down the middle in all the polls.
50% of the population just want to “own the libs”.
(facepalm)

6285

Nope, but you are. That’s literally the only point of 95% of your posts here.

6286

As it has been since June 2017, of course.

6287

But leave was sold with the promise of a deal. No one (except Farage and his ilk) spoke about no deal.

6288

Rhetoric along the lines of “support me and you won’t get death threats” is not belief in any common good.

I suspect you know, and you’re just joking, but the context - as response to a tearful, frightened MP asking him to tone down language of “traitors” - is pretty horrific.

6289

They do not. Not only was it not legally binding, but a previous Parliament cannot bind a future one. If politicians promised something impossible in 2016, that’s awful, but it doesn’t mean anything beyond their failing.

6290

By breaking the law? When did you decide “at any cost” was the price we should pay to leave the EU?

6291

breaking silence

Some context needed. English is a masterful language of understatement, especially in the hands (mouths) of British born and raised, and even more so in the mouths of those with higher education (i.e. upper class, or posh)

So, saying “humbug” is not the same as you or even I saying it, it is more akin to, directly and to one’s face, telling the other MP to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out.

It is saying,

I think so little of your words I won’t even answer

It’s basically how one would react to a 4 year old pulling a tantrum, as in

I’m ignoring you, you little child.

And taken on top of everything else he has said and done, his blatant disrespect to British institutions etc, then yeah, from him,

humbug

is actually rather insulting.

Not to mention the other MP didn’t say anything offensive, quite the opposite, an appeal to people to behave like grown ups.

At least Geoffrey Cox strung together a sentence in his reply:

edit:

There’s also a deeper frame that then leads to digging in your heels on remain/leave.

People looking at this from an economic and social point of view can’t help but see it as a rather stupid idea, because it really is, from that perspective.

However, if you think the country is being run by European dictators, and our way of life is being eroded, and we have been sidelined and ignored (and you can make the argument that for many people, they have indeed been sidelined, and ignored, and told to stfu regarding many things they feel uncomfortable about, and being blanket called racists for being uncomfortable with burkas etc) and this is about freedom, and making Britain great again, then really there is no economic price too high for that.

I’ve said it before, I don’t think the EU is a fantastic organisation, and there is lots to improve. On balance however, the leave promises are a bunch of crap, their policies are full of holes and there is no way to deliver on what they promised.

And now things have developed to the point where ardent leavers are questioning parliament and the courts whilst still ironically screaming democracy and sovereignty. And in many cases literally screaming!!!

And thus we get people shouting at each other!

So, in a way, yes this is a non functioning parliament (as in no way to get Brexit done) but from another point of view, it is a very alive and kicking parliament. I’m from Kenya, and I don’t ever see the day when MPs can grill President Kenyatta or PM Odinga in such a way (although the courts did rule against the president once…)

I still maintain the best thing is to:

1. Revoke
in order to buy us time to sort ourselves out.

2. Re-engage

, i.e. the electorate. Find out what people are so angry about. From what I understandther are several issues, not exclusive to the UK. Off the top off my head:

  • it is a creeping sense of failure as a country,
  • of seeing Germany do so well with manufacturing,
  • of seeing our main business (banking) dominated by a few people and the effects of that wealth not coming down,
  • of having everything so thoroughly centred on London,
  • of feeling stuck in a rat race,
  • of feeling frustrated with a broken welfare and NHS system (either angry that people are “cheating” the system, e.g. immigrants here for free healthcare - conveniently ignoring, or not being aware, that immigrants run the NHS, and that Brits use other EU NHS systems rather extensively - or angry at being stuck in the system (which penalises you for working too much!)
  • of feeling that Magnuski from Poland just stole your job
  • of feeling uncomfortable that half the people in your block of flats don’t speak English to any real level (I’m writing this from my block, and it is true)

The solution(s) to this come down to
regenerating everything outside of London/the SE,
educating people (I’m sorry to say but the level of education in this country seems appalling. Turning out sub capable students), and encouraging them to become more self sufficient. If you are totally dependent on the government for a handout, then any change there affects you massively.

I personally think everyone should take citizenship classes and tests before voting. You need a licence to drive, and the consequences of bad driving are a few people dead. The consequences of bad (or rather, ignorant, emotion based voting based on very skilled manipulation) voting are Trump and Bojo the clown.

Immigrants here have to take a test before getting citizenship.

3. Re-engage:

with the EU. Assume out (rightful) position as one of the leaders of the EU. Use our clout, economy etc to push for the common good.

goes back to lurking

6292

It’s a matter of racism, and glee at racist outcomes.

6293

I was half-joking and half-serious. The English are indeed masterful at understatement, and I am indeed jealous of that. The UK is facing a much worse, more permanent crisis that the US, but the shameless pathological narcissism of Trump is its own unique form of national torture.

6294

I’m just grateful that we are still at the level where his saying humbug can be called out.

Now, taking a step back, ofcourse the opposition leaders are going to lay into him. He messed up, badly, with the supreme court.

My main concern is he is going to leverage this into an us/them narrative, him being the champion of the downtrodden, poor, ignored, maligned and betrayed, against the humbug elite who are treading down, making poor, ignoring, maligning and betraying the “majority.”

Anyway, I’ll shut up now.

@SorenJohnson 10 crowns is sounding quite sexy. Day 1 purchase from me.

6295

It’s only more permanent if the conditions that led to Trump being elected are dealt with.

6296

First actual consequence of the ruling - no recess for the Tory conference.

6297

Oh all those lost deposits for rooms and payments for printing and materials down the drain :)

6298

I’m not really in favour of all this. I hope we can pass an extension quickly so that we can move onto the GE. The executive shouldn’t be in place with no confidence. It’s a mess.

6299

It’s them versus us. It’s as simple as that.

6300

They promised to carry out Brexit in the 2017 election as well, of course. Which is equally not legally binding, but hardly helps make the case that the 2017 election ends the mandate for Brexit.

6301

Yeah this is the best summary of why what he said was wrong.

I agree there should be a norm against the kind of language Boris Johnson deployed, but by god can we make it apply to both sides? The chairman of the Labour party was leading chants of “Lock him up” on Tuesday night for chrissakes.