So the next election is a second referendum of sorts? No Deal Brexit vs Muddle on?

And vs revoke. YouGov tracking has the LibDems ahead of Labor (and really far away from the Tories).

It’s because we’ve lacked an actual opposition.

I notice all the stuff coming out of Labour communications is non-Brexit related as part of their policy to sit on the fence. No Deal is looming, the GFA agreement and peace are on the line and all Labour can do is bleat on about austerity and other things. There’s been little criticism coming out of the Leaders Office and front benchers. The only things trending in Labour today are attempts to deselect the wonderful Jess Phillips and continuing attacks on Tom Watson. Not a word on Ireland.

Yep.

This is why I think that - if Labour/Lib Dems are smart - they’ll force through a second referendum with preferential voting before allowing a general election. Take Brexit off the table, and then you can go to election on your actual policies, rather than having that issue overshadow everything. Making the GE about Brexit, really only benefits one actor: BoJo. It’s bad for the LibDems, because - although they may pick up some Remain voters from Labour, that route makes it most likely that they will fail in their policy to remain in the EU. And it’s bad for Labour because they’ll bleed votes to everyone that they might keep in a regular election. Plus, no one really knows what a vote for Labour represents.

Unfortunately, I suspect Corbyn also labors under the delusion that “if only I get to negotiate”, he can deliver a deal with the EU that both satisfies the Leavers in parliament and the Remainers enough to gain a majority. I doubt such a deal is possible, though - and a GE where each side take up increasingly irreconcilable positions isn’t going to make it easier.

Why on earth would the Lib Dems want to do that? Brexit is the only reason they’re polling as well as they are.

With the current chairmen of the Tories and Labour, I think they’d do well regardless. More importantly, though, their chances of achieving their stated Brexit policy is probably better in a referendum, than in a GE. Which should be what matters the most to them, though I know… country over party? What a weird idea in this day and age…

Labour’s Brexit strategy confounds me.

The idea that “A better deal is out there if we replace our leadership!” sounds good in a vacuum, but is very close to the Tory position that “A better deal is out there if we support our leadership!”

The promise of a national referendum within 6 months of the parliamentary election carries with it a risk of election fatigue. It carries the risk that the government will be weakened if voters reject a deal endorsed by the government or if the government is unable to endorse a deal. And again, the promise to hold another referendum and implement its outcome walks right into the current Tory talking point about the urgent need to respect the will of the people by honoring the results of the last referendum.

And after all that the core problem remains: Labour’s “better deal” will certainly be better than No Deal, but it is unclear how that deal could be better than “remain.” Just thinking through the Irish border issue: If some radical Republicans want free travel to Irish Republic, and are willing to kill / die over the issue, and some radical Unionists feel the same with regards to the UK, then any Brexit deal will involve accepting renewed violence or else living with all the obligations of EU membership with less of the benefits.

What am I missing?

It’s more the idea that a better deal is possible if we don’t commit ourselves to May’s red lines (which were pulled from the air after the referendum to placate the Tory hardliners; the public didn’t vote in the referendum knowing what they would be).

From the start of negotiations, the EU has been consistent about what those red lines mean for the resulting kind of deal. You’ve probably seen this slide they produced before:

image

So if, for instance, a Labour government wanted freedom of movement to continue after Brexit, better deals are clearly available because other countries already have those deals.

This implies we would negotiate to stay in a customs union with the EU post-Brexit. Which btw is also the only way to keep the NI border open and therefore respect the Good Friday agreement.

Their policy is to remain neutral, so I don’t think they will be endorsing their deal vs remain in a second referendum.

Oh, it wouldn’t.

It would be a lot better than May’s deal however. And if we were going to remain after all, then in terms of popular opinion they would need a mandate stronger than a general election win to overturn the last referendum, hence the need for a new referendum with a sane Leave option on it vs Remain.

So I view Labour’s policy as the only practical route to remaining, but if people don’t vote to remain then we have a soft Brexit we could live with as the other possible outcome.

What are the odds that Johnson supporters like Yiannopoulos and dont think his involvement is an issue? I think we know the answer to that question.

Because they want to put country above party, and really see Brexit as a terrible thing?

I might be way too naive here, LIbDems might be just as bad as the rest.

One thing I’m wondering, could disaffected anti-Corbyn Labour voters, leave, become LibDems, then hostile takeover the LibDems in a sense and push them to the left?

That might be the best way to end run Corbyn.

All LibDem means is a little yellow sandwich flag stuck in the top of the Westminster Turd Sandwich but right now the LibDems claim to be spreading the tiniest amount of shit in the sarnie we’re going to be forced to eat.

edit: i googled “little flag stuck in a sandwich or burger” and found they are actually called sandwich flags, so perhaps todays click into whats happening in uk politics hasnt been wasted after all

All prior evidence suggests otherwise.

Bloody hell America, what kind of shit are you eating?

Labour’s shadow Brexit Secretary Barry Gardiner told Unearthed : “That trade agreements with the USA and Australia risk opening the floodgates to food imports produced to much lower standards. Their rules specify ‘acceptable levels’ of maggots in orange juice, rat droppings in ginger and hormone levels in beef. The right level should be zero. Undercutting our farmers and food manufacturers like this would drive many of our producers out of business and put jobs at risk

More detail (from the Telegraph, so no link to click)

Maggots

While we spare a slightly-queasy thought for the girl who found that her boil-in-the-bag rice was actually boil-in-the-bag maggots , it’s worth noting that the Food and Drug Administration in America publishes legally allowed amounts of insects in food – canned mushrooms are the worst for maggots apparently with 20 maggots being allowed per 100g of drained mushrooms. Ewww.

A spokesman for Britain’s Food Standards Authority said that "In EU Food Law there are no allowable limits of foreign bodies in food and there is no published list of ‘tolerance’ levels of foreign bodies / matter in food. The expectation of food is that it is not contaminated.”

Rodent hair

Again, thanks to the FDA we know that in the US 11 rodent hairs per 50g of ground cinnamon is an “acceptable” level. Thankfully it’s only 1 rodent hair per 100g of chocolate though. If ever you fancy some light, vomit-inducing reading then the FDA’s Food Defect Action Levels is well worth a look.

A good / depressing summary of how UK politics has failed to surmount the legal realities of Brexit over the past 4 years.

Twitter thread, just the text

If you only follow Brexit from a legal - or legalistic - perspective you will miss many things. For example, the mad decision to trigger Article 50 with neither thought nor preparation can can only be understood in terms of politics. But if you understand Brexit only in terms of politics you will miss perhaps a great deal more.

Here, in broadly chronological order, are aspects of Brexit where an understanding of law is helpful.

At the very beginning of the process - the "re-negotiation"

Breathless pundits and their sources presented this as a failure of political will and tactics. Cameron did not try hard enough. But: the EU went as far as it could without treaty changes.

The referendum

Until the vote, few if any on the Leave side had realised that the vote had no legally binding effect. Few, at that time, realised Article 50 was a distinct step.

Theresa May’s conference speech, 2016

When May blithely declared her red lines and unrealistic timetable, there was clapping and cheering from Brexiter pundits and politicians. They did not realise the frustrating knock-on effects for the upcoming negotiation of a legal text.

The run-up to notification

By the end of 2016, the EU27 negotiating team was in place, with draft guidelines for the upcoming negotiation. In contrast, UK’s daft decision to start a new government department from scratch meant not even basic work had been done. Amateur hour.

By start of 2017, EU27 was ready at any point to get EU27 sign-off on binding legal guidelines for its negotiation mandate. May and Davis refused parliament any role - “keeping cards close to chest” - which just created big problems down road when deal emerged.

EU27 presented a suite of formal documents to substantiate each of its negotiating objectives for the deal text. UK had banal political speeches, a flimsy last-minute white paper, and playing to the gallery. Davis thought he could wing it, and the lobby and MPs nodded along.

Sequencing

Control of the agenda meant control of how the legal text developed. UK just had bombast and boasted of winning the “row of the summer”. In fact, UK folded in less than a week

Negotiation

Brexiters believed (and believe) it is all a test of will and shouting louder - that the EU27 just need to be told firmly what UK wants (just like the re-negotiation). A lack of seriousness about negotiating a legal text undermined UK throughout. Lack of trust.

The Brexiter playing to the domestic gallery meant that EU27 sought to pin-down UK first with the joint report and then with the backstop. Both through lack of trust that UK would comply with obligations. Both self-inflicted by UK untrustworthiness.

Article 50 period

The notification was treated like a press release, a test of political virility. UK wasted time once triggered with needless general election. But Article 50 imposed a hard looming deadline, which UK government only realised at late stage.

End game

For EU27, the negotiated legal text was end of a process started in 2016, from objectives to final legal text. But for UK, it was start of process because government had kept parliament out of the process. Brexiters thought EU27 were still open to pressure. Too late.

Prorogation

Johnson and Cummings thought they could blag their way to a five week shut-down of parliament. Their supporters clapped and cheered. But they could not find anyone to sign a witness statement under pain of perjury. And so they lost in court.

Benn Act

And now, Brexiter pundits and politicians clap and cheer about possible ways to avoid the Benn Act, even though in formal promises to the Scottish court, the government has surrendered to the Surrender Act. The lack of legal realism continues even now


This thread could have dozens of more examples. At each stage of the process, the belief that things were just a matter of political will have been confounded by legal reality. And still Brexiters put their heads down and charge at the walls, and get clapped and cheered on.

None of this to say is that law explains everything, or indeed many things, about Brexit. And there are things legal commentators have got wrong - am first to admit. But the failure to take law seriously explains a good deal why this attempt at Brexit was so botched.

The sad thing, nothing has been learned. Every set-back just makes Brexiters shoutier about political will. And then they wonder why they keep on being frustrated.

But at least they cannot say they were not warned

All of it easily explained by the fact every person intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced enough to push through Brexit is intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced and therefore a remainer.

All the Brexiters have, the best of their fucking best, are a bunch of fuckups, idiots, wankstains and degenerates none of whom could organise a wank in a brothel.

And now the Brexicunt scum are planning where to build their concentration camps.

Meh. This is disingenuous at best.

Any product (like oranges) that are grown outside, stored in a non-airtight warehouse or silo, and processed outside of a NASA-like clean-room, is going to have some contaminants in it. The idea that tens of thousands of tons of oranges are going to be delivered to a juicer, pulped and put into containers without some small amount of insect matter mixed in is a fantasy.

Likewise, cows have hormones. Regardless of whether a farmer has added some growth hormone to their stock, you are going to have some level of “hormones” in the beef because… they are living creatures that contain “glands”.

The FDA specifies “acceptable levels” because they insist on tests that can detect the presence of these contaminants far below the specified levels. If you say that your orange juice will have ZERO maggot, you are either saying that your orange juice will be $200 per glass, or that your tests will not be able to detect any level of maggot-pulp.

Now, it’s very possible that the EU standards are actually stricter than the US standards (I have no idea) and that the UK will end up with more maggots-per-gallon in their orange juice than they enjoy today and more artificial or natural bovine hormones than they get today. But this whole “zero” crap is just theater.

It is cause for concern. If they allow more maggots without permitting a corresponding increase in spider parts, it’ll upset the delicate balance that drives the flavour of our North American orange juice.

I’m a bit shocked that the allowable amount is 0 in the UK… because the implication isn’t that its really 0 allowed.

The real implication is that NO ONE IS CHECKING.

BTW - my cousin was a food inspector in the 1970s in NY, and these rules were old even back then (you don’t want to hear his stories, believe me!)

All you guys freaking out about insect parts in your food must never have worked in a restaurant.

Because if you had, this is not a thing you’d worry about anymore. Insect parts are the least of the things you should be concerned about.