I think we’ve already established that the headbangers will accept any damage to the UK in order to leave.
I agree, but if the argument you’re hearing is it means we can have a unicorn, I think it’s reasonable to ask the arguer to be more clear about that unicorn.
Its pointless even discussing it with them. Facts, data and reason are irrelevant, all they going to do is shout Make England Great Again and retreat to their tribal cluster. They are never going to admit they hate foreigners and fear for the future of white culture and this is the sole reason for Brexit. Its just lies lies and more lies about it really being about minor irrelevancies that dont matter.
Whereas its realistic to believe rabid racists and ultranationalists would sacrifice lives, jobs and money to get rid of foreigners, they arent honest enough to admit it, instead lies and bullshit about sovereignty and passport colours. Lies. Lies. Lies. An endless stream of mistruths, dishonesty and bullshit, from top to bottom.
edit: If this goes ahead I’ll be forced to show my nationality papers everywhere I go within a few years. Not a fucking chance a brown man with a Muslim name will be able to freely go about his business. Liddles already suggesting I’ll lose my vote on the basis of my familys DNA. The technological solution to the problems of classifying by nose length, what these cunts tried last time they were in power.
and our media sounds like 4chan
Dont quite get what Labour a playing at with this Billionaire Bogeymen Are The Enemy Under Our beds campaign
Is it just relying on the idiocracy not to understand how wealth is held by the UNWHI class? The sixth form politics MP Moyle was on about “banning” billionaires. I presume he just means barring them from this country as residents so their wealth is held offshore and they pay even less taxes or banning them completely and just telling them not to spend their money here. Maybe they just want to fuck over Duke of Westminster, he fits the criteria of billionaire via inherited land?
This seems to be nonsense spawned by a bunch of old trots who are still fighting the class war against Old Money, Anglo-Saxon landed gentry. Ive never once seen the hard left lead an “eat the rich” attack against 1st or 2nd gen immigrant ultra wealthy, those born in shacks with no running water but now own jets. Their policies still cover confiscating assets from rich BAMEs though because they are blanket policies. No more private schools for minorities and those in foreign countries to send their kids to (in SE Asia many of my dads clients kids schooled in the UK). Nope, its just focusing on a Lord or Duke or Rich White Men like Branson, and only private schools like Eton, because they are still living in an age when only upper class white men were rich. Just tax the shit out of them and remove charitable status from their schools and trusts and foundations. All this “banning” and confiscating language just turns people away.
draxen
6811
Honestly, I cannot. I’m not an economist or well versed in international trade. Even reading the opposing economic arguments it’s difficult to draw a conclusion. The obvious example is the much publicized US trade deal but it’s an entirely unknown element and I’m unconvinced as to how beneficial it would be.
It’s easier to quantify what we lose by remaining in the EU customs union. Not only does it prevent us from making our own trade deals but it would also require us to adhere to EU tariffs, regulations and trade deals negotiated by the EU on our behalf without having any say or vote on the consequences. (Muh sovereignty!).
As far as I know leaving with Boris’s deal does not prevent us from later taking the position to negotiate some type of customs union. It’s still possible to debate it as part of the next stage of negotiations.
Electorally, it’s a winner. And it has the advantage of being true.
Then you’re unable to judge whether it is a good idea or not. There are obvious negatives to both Brexit and Boris’s version of it, but you say it’s worth it because maybe later you can have a trade deal you’re unable to articulate. Put that way, it’s nonsense, isn’t it?
draxen
6814
Not at all. It’s the old argument of economics vs sovereignty.
Except you don’t seem to be able to articulate how much of either will be lost or gained. And frankly, we’ll be losing a lot of both.
jsnell
6816
That’s an interesting use of “quantify”, a word that’s generally understood as putting a number on things. You managed to not only not put any number on anytthing, but not state any kind of concrete loss at all!
Maybe to start off you could try giving a single concrete term in a single trade deal that you believe the UK will be able to renegotiate successfully? Should be easy, given the alleged decades of the UK being fucked over by the French and Germans.
Yes i know the politics of envy, hate and scapegoating are a winner, look where we are, but if you pretend its targeted at a handful of people when in actually its a broad brush then the problems start to happen.
Forcing a few thousand UNHWI to re-domicile some holding vehicles and trusts elsewhere isnt going to change the world. Nationalising schools because they are private schools and happen to sit in same category as Eton might change a bit more though. There are a bunch of private schools, from a big old fashioned posh one to smaller replacements for infants/junior/senior schools in my area. None of these smaller ones have ever seen anyone with a posh accent. Money round my way is held by the offpsring of East End dockers and other blue collar workers and now the schools are populated by whose cockney dads own scaffolding/building etc contractors or service/facility companies in the City. There are also plenty of schools with kids of 1st or 2nd gen immigrants whose work/education ethics demand the best and are willing to pay for it, like Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary who sent her kids to private school. There is no way this a vote winner.
draxen
6818
OK, but it makes for dry reading…
jpinard
6819
I’ve got news for you draxen. The UK has nothing of value to the rest of the world that puts them in a position of power to leverage trade deals. Unlike when you’re in the EU. And if you say “mini cooper”? A single niche product does not a trade deal make. Further I could see BMW moving that plant back to the mainland anyways and just expanding the Netherlands plant.
jsnell
6820
How would you know? It’s pretty clear you didn’t read it. It’s a description of mechanisms, not a quantification of what will be “lost” when staying in the customs union.
It’s one thing to value sovereignty over economic wellbeing just as a matter of principle; that’s just a value judgement one could make either way. But you’re not doing just that, you keep implying that the deals negotiated by the EU are bad (either now or will be in the future). And that’s the part that you seem totally unable to support.
The thing is, the EU is to a great extent just a big comprehensive trade deal. The UK is in effect opting out of that trade deal in order to…try and negotiate a trade deal. And they are insisting that, in the interim, they have no trade deal, when they could be insisting that they have one. And all this nonsense is predicated on the wild belief that the one they could get by negotiating is so much better than the one they have now, but better only in impossible-to-define, ephemeral ways.
jpinard
6822
Yep, but no Brexiter will ever admit that.
Saw this today. Can’t stop laughing.
This is why Im not laughing.
google doesn’t help with UNWHI. What is it?
Eh what?
Every EU member gets a say, and we get a veto iirc.
