Not only that, but the idea that the US will give the UK a better trade deal than they already have/are working on (through the EU) is just quaint. The UK is desperate for a trade deal; the US won’t be, and has chafed for decades due to the protections that the EU has ringed the Eurozone with. The UK will likely have to abandon all those protections just to gain parity with the deal it already has - never mind getting something better.
All this logic is wonderful, but won’t help change the mind of a brexit voting person who feels disenfranchised, i.e. most people I know, who seem to have bought into the “EU is the enemy” rhetoric hard without stopping to think about it even for a minute.
I saw that video posted on Reddit once with the caption: “Every pub in Britain”. How correct is that?
Not really. It’s a certain type of pub in a certain type of area frequented by a certain type of people. The type that get drunk and sing karaoke on weekday mornings. Often called Estate Pubs or Flat Roofed Pubs. Expect violence and vomit.
draxen
6851
You (and others posting recently) seem to think I believe that post Brexit independent trade deals will be economically equal to or better than us remaining in the EU single market/customs union but you cast aspersions on me that are not true. I’ve never believed this. I don’t know any Leave supporter who does.
The fact that Brexit is economically damaging was the entire focus of the Remain campaign. The reasons for leaving were not economic. Leave won a majority in spite of the known economic impact.
Independent trade deals may allow us to mitigate some of the economic damage. If we remain in the EU customs union after Brexit we lose a non-trivial amount of sovereignty - one of the primary reasons for leaving.
Timex
6852
Why do you want to leave the EU if you know that it’s going to harm you economically?
Could you explain this to me? It honestly makes no sense at all to me.
draxen
6854
For me personally:
Sovereignty - I don’t wish to cede control over our own laws to the EU
Dislike of the direction of the EU project - ever increasing integration leading to federalization
Democratic values - we had a referendum and we voted to leave. We must respect that result
draxen
6855
If we leave the EU but we decide to remain part of the EU customs union then we must adhere to EU tariffs, regulations and trade deals without having any vote or influence over them.
If you want the really nitty gritty detail I posted a link earlier (that @jsnell accused me of not reading :)) and I’ll copy/paste a summary of it below.
Summary
https://lawyersforbritain.org/staying-in-the-eu-customs-union-after-exit
Staying inside the EU Customs Union after ceasing to be a Member State would necessarily entail a severe and continuing curtailment of the UK’s powers to govern itself as an independent state and would subject it to the continuing effective jurisdiction of the ECJ. In particular:
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The UK would be obliged to operate a system of external tariffs according to the Common Customs Tariff decided by the EU, and would be obliged to follow future changes made to the Common Tariff, while not having a vote on those changes.
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The UK would not be allowed to enter in to trade agreements involving reduced or zero tariffs with non-Member countries, which would make it in practice impossible to conclude meaningful trade agreements. It would in practice be obliged to follow the terms of trade agreements reached by the EU with non-Member countries or blocs, without having a vote on those agreements or on how they are negotiated. It is hard to see what useful purpose would be served by having a Department of International Trade.
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The UK would be obliged, either directly or via an indirect mechanism similar to that of the EFTA Court under the EEA Agreement, to continue to be bound by past and future decisions of the ECJ on the interpretation of the common rules of the customs union.
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If (as seems inevitable) the continuing customs union with the EU extends to non-tariff customs controls (such as certification of compliance with technical or safety standards, health requirements for food, etc) the UK would be obliged to follow the EU’s future rule changes on all these matters as well as interpretations of the rules by the ECJ.
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The UK would have to apply these same rules and regulations across its own domestic economy as well. WTO rules do not permit us to operate different or more stringent standards on imported goods than the rules under which we allow goods to be put on our domestic market.
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Having to follow the EU’s common rules on such non-tariff customs controls would (1) mean that the UK would be unable to negotiate changes to such controls with non-Member countries in order to facilitate trade with them and (2) make it in practice very difficult indeed for the UK to change its own rules for goods in its domestic market to differ from those applicable to imported goods under the Customs union common rules.
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Overall, the UK would be significantly worse off than it is at present as an EU Member because it would be bound by the common rules of the EU customs union over wide areas of policy, be unable to operate an international trade policy independently of the EU, but have no vote on these matters.
Timex
6856
So you don’t ever intend to engage in international trade agreements? Because they are all going to result in that kind of ceding of control. That’s essentially what the EU is.
You just want to exist separately from Europe?
Ultimately, since you realize that you are going to do harm to your own nation here, don’t you see how this obviously won’t work?
You are going to damage your economy, despite promising the opposite. Your population will have less prosperity, your government will have less resources. It’s going good to lead to a backlash against your ideas.
So I read that, and it just made me think…wouldn’t these things be solved by staying in the EU? I mean I’m a known idiot so maybe I’m not getting it…
jpinard
6858
Last I checked you make 98% of your own laws dude. That 1 or 2% is worth destroying your country?
jpinard
6859
That’s why we all know Brexit is stupid. Like I said earlier, Draxen and other Brexiters are living in a fantasy world where the EU is the boogeyman for the problems the UK has. They have amplified this sovereignty thing to a level of the US fighting for independence, which in reality, the UK IS a sovereign nation, they make almost all their own laws, they used to be an active part of the EU direction, and now these crazy Brexiters think the glory days of the old GB will happen again if they leave the EU.
It truly is a “Make Britain Great Again” baloney-fest. Based on slip-ups Draxon has written in the past, he doesn’t like the immigration situation, so I think xenophobia is a way bigger piece of the puzzle than he and others lets on.
Here’s some predictions if BoJo actually does do a trade deal with the U.S.
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NHS is rapidly underfunded and starts to collapse. Additional private insurance is introduced and the cost of living skyrockets as people are forced to buy into for-profit health plans at unprecedented rates.
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The health of the those in the UK dips, rates of autism & cancer increase as the unregulated, pesticide/insecticide/herbicide mess of agribusiness from the U.S. floods the UK market.
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The UK farm industry collapses. They can’t compete with the factory farming of the U.S.
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Cheaper imports are brought in further killing “made in UK” production. UK can’t compete with the cheaper labor from Asian/American goods.
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Immigrant doctors/nurses leave the UK further destroying the NHS. As it becomes exceptionally difficult to get in for treatment a multi-tiered system is setup where-in only the rich get seen in a timely manner.
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Russian business interests swoop in to buy up more and more of the real estate and resources as the UK bottom falls out.
Synth
6860
Brexit is going to cause Autism? That’s a new one.
Timex
6861
Dude, come on.
You live in the US. You’re eating that food.
The idea that US agriculture is unsafe or unregulated is nonsense, and you know it.
magnet
6862
Autism diagnosis in the UK has increased dramatically over the past few decades, in parallel with the US. I suspect a lot of this is simply due to better recognition and testing.
The EU is more than a trade agreement. EU regulations are binding on its members even if they do not involve international trade. The GDPR is one example. IIRC, the death penalty is explicitly prohibited in the EU.
That said, in my opinion escaping the jurisdiction of the EU is hardly worth wrecking the economy.
You mean the glossed over, ignored, relegated to project fear economic impact? That some people still don’t think is real.
BTW, not having a go at you personally, although that seems to be the current sport here, more confused why you’d hold to a line of thought that is…questionable.
so, don’t leave then!
Your argument seems like an argument in favour of remaining to be honest, as it is showing that the least bad brexit is still pretty bad.
No, you’re getting it. You’re saying precisely what I am!
No current or possible brexit deal is worth the pain and uncertainty, and the purported loss of sovereignty etc is a non starter. We are not oppressed, but it makes for a handy rallying cry at election time.
And after all that, we will still have to deal with Europe, a Europe united against us.
That never ends well.
edit: interesting article discussing exactly this:
All possible, but I am going to use my salt liberally here, and not go down this potential consequences route.
I think just the current situation is enough to make people reconsider the wisdom of leaving, let alone any possible negative aspects of dealing with the US.
I read that alot of this has risen in lockstep with the increase of processed food consumption. That’s an argument/discussion for another day/thread though, one I would be interested in engaging with.
